Discussion:
SJW FTW
(too old to reply)
Don Marti
2015-12-03 16:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)

Does this make sense?

Of course it does. And you don't need boring academic
postmodern this or identity that to explain it.
Mainstream open source SJWism is clearly the winning
strategy from a behavioral economics and evolutionary
psychology point of view.

Supporting the expansion of the demographic pool that
the Free Software scene can draw from is a hell of
a signal.

In effect, you're saying

* It only _helps_ me if somebody in Oakland or
Detroit learns JavaScript and CSS.

* I'm not a generic nerd in competition for yet
another generic standing desk in an open-plan
monkey house -- I have unique abilities that become
more valuable as the Free Software scene grows,
bwah ha ha.

and like any good signal, it gets more meaningful the
more you back it up with time-consuming or otherwise
costly actions.

Anti-SJWism, by contrast, is a backward strategy,
costly signaling of low fitness.
--
Don Marti <***@zgp.org>
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
Are you safe from 3rd-party web tracking? http://www.aloodo.org/test/
Bob Bernstein
2015-12-03 17:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also
some of the biggest SJWs?
Does this make sense?
It does _now_. Fifteen/twenty years ago it was unheard-of.

I blame esr and W, in that order.
--
Bob Bernstein
Ruben Safir
2015-12-06 03:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bernstein
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also some
of the biggest SJWs?
Does this make sense?
It does _now_. Fifteen/twenty years ago it was unheard-of.
What are you speaking of?

You don't think the Free Software community had more social activists then
the community in general, from the start?

Free Software is not an engineering feat, but a product of social activism.
Post by Bob Bernstein
I blame esr and W, in that order.
--
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Rick Moen
2015-12-06 04:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
What are you speaking of?
You don't think the Free Software community had more social activists
then the community in general, from the start?
Free Software is not an engineering feat, but a product of social activism.
Did you ever get the slow, sinking feeling that you just missed the
point of antecedent discussion entirely, and that quite possibly the
person you were responding to did likewise?

Well, you should.
--
Cheers, (morganj): 0 is false and 1 is true, correct?
Rick Moen (alec_eso): 1, morganj
***@linuxmafia.com (morganj): bastard.
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Ruben Safir
2015-12-06 08:02:03 UTC
Permalink
I'm not the one reading long rants that work better than Zolpiden while
on vacation in the Caribien
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Ruben Safir
What are you speaking of?
You don't think the Free Software community had more social activists
then the community in general, from the start?
Free Software is not an engineering feat, but a product of social activism.
Did you ever get the slow, sinking feeling that you just missed the
point of antecedent discussion entirely, and that quite possibly the
person you were responding to did likewise?
Well, you should.
--
Cheers, (morganj): 0 is false and 1 is true, correct?
Rick Moen (alec_eso): 1, morganj
McQ! (4x80) -- seen on IRC
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So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Jim Michmerhuizen
2015-12-03 18:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Marti
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)
SJW ?
Shlomi Fish
2015-12-03 18:35:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:02:46 -0500
Post by Don Marti
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)
SJW ?
See:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior

Regards,

Shlomi Fish
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Tony Godshall
2015-12-03 21:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Marti
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)
SJW ?
Apparently "check it out, this is email, I can wait" means Let Shlomi
Fish Google That For You.

I would have replied http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=SJW

But that's just me.

Who's Captain Obvious today?
Shlomi Fish
2015-12-04 09:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony!

On Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:29:39 -0800
Post by Tony Godshall
Post by Don Marti
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)
SJW ?
Apparently "check it out, this is email, I can wait" means Let Shlomi
Fish Google That For You.
I would have replied http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=SJW
Well, I used DuckDuckGo rather than Google, and I didn't use the acronym which
I already knew. I should also note that Google returns different results to
different people:

http://dontbubble.us/

Another note is that after I read
https://tatoolkit.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/what-do-you-mean-by-wdym/ I've been
trying very hard to avoid using acronyms, especially obscure ones. I
also recall that someone gave me an acronym for which I could not find any
expansion of on the web, and it turned out to be for
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fault_in_Our_Stars if I remember correctly .

Regards,

Shlomi Fish
Post by Tony Godshall
But that's just me.
Who's Captain Obvious today?
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Ruben Safir
2015-12-04 02:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Marti
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers
are also some of the biggest SJWs? (check it out,
this is email, I can wait.)
Single Jewish Women?
Rick Moen
2015-12-05 15:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also some of
the biggest SJWs? (check it out, this is email, I can wait.)
Does this make sense?
Of course it does. And you don't need boring academic postmodern this
or identity that to explain it. Mainstream open source SJWism is
clearly the winning strategy from a behavioral economics and
evolutionary psychology point of view.
Supporting the expansion of the demographic pool that the Free
Software scene can draw from is a hell of a signal.
Listening to what the world's population wants is just common sense.
Speaking and acting in a way that reflects awareness of cultural
difference is also just common sense.


There appears to be some difference of view about some episodes of
online vigilantism carried out in the name of inclusiveness, most often
alleging that open source projects and their leaders have been guilty of
racism, sexism, anti-LGBTQIAism, and other things (viz., Sarah Sharp's
recent odd allegations on LKML followed by high-profile flouncing off).
Sundry remedies are then requested by the critics: removal of coders
from their own projects, codes of conduct with (often) very odd
provisions -- see GitHub CoC debacle -- and so on.

Your posting might be an oblique way of asking 'Is Eric Raymond just
being a jackass?' Or perhaps not. FWIW, I advised Eric that his
then-draft broadside against 'SJWs' would be counterproductive, that he
should tone his editorial way down, and that while discussing specifics
of incidents such as the 'djangoconcardiff' vigilante might be useful,
railing against ideology was not. Eric accepted all of my other
corrections and suggestions, but rejected that one utterly.


Meanwhile, your point is of course well taken, that outreach and an
inclusive emphasis yield great benefits. Equally, naturally there are
conduct problems within various open source projects, because... humans.
IMO, project leaders already had what they needed to deal with that:
being project leaders, e.g. 'You're in charge; act that way'. And if
outside critics (or anyone else) are still dissatisifed with how open
source leaders have processed their complaints, their ultimate remedy is
always available: the right to fork.

E.g., critic 'djangoconcardiff' avers that a Puerto Rican coder who runs
a Django project had declined to merge several patches the critic
asserts were from trans or gay code contributors, and feels social
justice concerns obliged the coder to both accept those patches and sign
a Code of Conduct requiring Right Thinking[tm] henceforth.[1] The coder
says no. Quelle horreur! Has injustice been committed? No,
pseudonymous complainer 'djangoconcardiff' is utterly free to relieve
dissatisfaction by forking his/her git repo and then running his/her
fork any way at all.

All such dissatisifed critics need is willingness to do the work. If
unwilling, they evidently weren't serious. Fin. Roll credits.


Eric railing against 'SJWs' was a sideshow and waste of time. However,
Don, your equating said epithet with 'supporting the expansion of the
demographic pool that the Free Software scene can draw from' also seems
problematic.

There _is_ a recent pattern of destructive conduct some call 'SJW'
activism: rage-mobbing, doxxing, trying to get people fired from their
jobs, and outright character assassination of anyone deemed an obstacle.
I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a sabotage playbook and meme
complex making the rounds.

My acquaintance Will Shetterly, longtime science fiction writer, wrote a
history of these tactics' development over the last decade within SF
publishing and fandom on the Internet, and wrote (in 2014) an
interesting free epub on the subject:
http://sjwar.blogspot.com/2014/03/my-book-is-done-and-so-am-ion-how-to.html


[1] Characterisation is from memory as I'm off-Net at the moment, and
not guaranteed. I'm also seriously jet-lagged. Greetings from Sint
Maarten / Saint Martin.
--
Cheers, "Two things programmers tend to underestimate:
Rick Moen 1. How long things take.
***@linuxmafia.com 2. How long our code will be around.
McQ! (4x80) 3. How many things we underestimate." @jasongorman
Ruben Safir
2015-12-06 03:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also some of
the biggest SJWs? (check it out, this is email, I can wait.)
Does this make sense?
Of course it does. And you don't need boring academic postmodern this
or identity that to explain it. Mainstream open source SJWism is
clearly the winning strategy from a behavioral economics and
evolutionary psychology point of view.
Supporting the expansion of the demographic pool that the Free
Software scene can draw from is a hell of a signal.
Listening to what the world's population wants is just common sense.
Speaking and acting in a way that reflects awareness of cultural
difference is also just common sense.
There appears to be some difference of view about some episodes of
online vigilantism carried out in the name of inclusiveness, most often
alleging that open source projects and their leaders have been guilty of
racism, sexism, anti-LGBTQIAism, and other things (viz., Sarah Sharp's
recent odd allegations on LKML followed by high-profile flouncing off).
Sundry remedies are then requested by the critics: removal of coders
from their own projects, codes of conduct with (often) very odd
provisions -- see GitHub CoC debacle -- and so on.
Your posting might be an oblique way of asking 'Is Eric Raymond just
being a jackass?' Or perhaps not. FWIW, I advised Eric that his
then-draft broadside against 'SJWs' would be counterproductive, that he
should tone his editorial way down, and that while discussing specifics
of incidents such as the 'djangoconcardiff' vigilante might be useful,
railing against ideology was not. Eric accepted all of my other
corrections and suggestions, but rejected that one utterly.
This Sarah?

"But this week, after Linux creator Linus Torvalds told Kroah-Hartman to get tough with developers who submitted sub-standard patches, Sharp, 28, felt he’d crossed a line, and she told him so. Torvalds says he needs to be plainspoken so that the thousands of contributors to the Linux project will get a clear message of what works and what doesn’t. But Sharp says that that aggressive tone is bad for Linux. According to her, it’s keeping some good developers away. Following is an edited transcript of a telephone interview with Sharp"


Scratch my fucking ass. I'm so sick of it. This young geneation is a
bunch of conformist morons who are offended by Linus and people who's politics
they disagree with, but could care less that they are being actively
numbered, categorized, followed, spied upon and living the life of Cattle.

What will it take before they wake up? Will someone need to tatoo their arms...
On no need! You Iphone does it for me!

This is the most intolerant and sheep like generation in western history.

Unlike Roger Daltry, the Kids are NOT alright.
Post by Rick Moen
Meanwhile, your point is of course well taken, that outreach and an
inclusive emphasis yield great benefits. Equally, naturally there are
conduct problems within various open source projects, because... humans.
being project leaders, e.g. 'You're in charge; act that way'. And if
outside critics (or anyone else) are still dissatisifed with how open
source leaders have processed their complaints, their ultimate remedy is
always available: the right to fork.
here is a quarter, kid. Go buy yourself an Operating System.
Post by Rick Moen
E.g., critic 'djangoconcardiff' avers that a Puerto Rican coder who runs
a Django project had declined to merge several patches the critic
asserts were from trans or gay code contributors, and feels social
justice concerns obliged the coder to both accept those patches and sign
a Code of Conduct requiring Right Thinking[tm] henceforth.[1] i
Homosexuality is Sin... at least in the Western and Semetic traditions.
Not that I've ever really cared about gay people I've met, or even befriended,
but lately the double speak has been bothering me.

Equating homosexuality with racist has now become a rubber hits road issue.
In one fell swoop now, every practicing Jew, Christian and even Muslims are
now painted as facists and racists.

the hell with that, Ms Sarah et al.
Post by Rick Moen
The coder
says no. Quelle horreur! Has injustice been committed? No,
pseudonymous complainer 'djangoconcardiff' is utterly free to relieve
dissatisfaction by forking his/her git repo and then running his/her
fork any way at all.
All such dissatisifed critics need is willingness to do the work. If
unwilling, they evidently weren't serious. Fin. Roll credits.
Eric railing against 'SJWs' was a sideshow and waste of time. However,
Don, your equating said epithet with 'supporting the expansion of the
demographic pool that the Free Software scene can draw from' also seems
problematic.
really... It is actually BACKWARDS. The target audience we have most
missed out on is SOCCER MOMS.
Post by Rick Moen
There _is_ a recent pattern of destructive conduct some call 'SJW'
activism: rage-mobbing, doxxing, trying to get people fired from their
jobs, and outright character assassination of anyone deemed an obstacle.
I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a sabotage playbook and meme
complex making the rounds.
My acquaintance Will Shetterly, longtime science fiction writer, wrote a
history of these tactics' development over the last decade within SF
publishing and fandom on the Internet, and wrote (in 2014) an
http://sjwar.blogspot.com/2014/03/my-book-is-done-and-so-am-ion-how-to.html
[1] Characterisation is from memory as I'm off-Net at the moment, and
not guaranteed. I'm also seriously jet-lagged. Greetings from Sint
Maarten / Saint Martin.
--
Rick Moen 1. How long things take.
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
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Rick Moen
2015-12-06 04:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
This Sarah?
No, some other Sarah Sharp exactly like her.

Ruben, why do you think your possession of offhand and ill-informed
opinions is inherently interesting to others?
Shlomi Fish
2015-12-30 16:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I'm note sure if Ruben will see this, but this is also for the rest of you.

On Sat, 5 Dec 2015 22:32:15 -0500
Post by Ruben Safir
Post by Rick Moen
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also some of
the biggest SJWs? (check it out, this is email, I can wait.)
Does this make sense?
Of course it does. And you don't need boring academic postmodern this
or identity that to explain it. Mainstream open source SJWism is
clearly the winning strategy from a behavioral economics and
evolutionary psychology point of view.
Supporting the expansion of the demographic pool that the Free
Software scene can draw from is a hell of a signal.
Listening to what the world's population wants is just common sense.
Speaking and acting in a way that reflects awareness of cultural
difference is also just common sense.
There appears to be some difference of view about some episodes of
online vigilantism carried out in the name of inclusiveness, most often
alleging that open source projects and their leaders have been guilty of
racism, sexism, anti-LGBTQIAism, and other things (viz., Sarah Sharp's
recent odd allegations on LKML followed by high-profile flouncing off).
Sundry remedies are then requested by the critics: removal of coders
from their own projects, codes of conduct with (often) very odd
provisions -- see GitHub CoC debacle -- and so on.
Your posting might be an oblique way of asking 'Is Eric Raymond just
being a jackass?' Or perhaps not. FWIW, I advised Eric that his
then-draft broadside against 'SJWs' would be counterproductive, that he
should tone his editorial way down, and that while discussing specifics
of incidents such as the 'djangoconcardiff' vigilante might be useful,
railing against ideology was not. Eric accepted all of my other
corrections and suggestions, but rejected that one utterly.
This Sarah?
"But this week, after Linux creator Linus Torvalds told Kroah-Hartman to get
tough with developers who submitted sub-standard patches, Sharp, 28, felt
he’d crossed a line, and she told him so. Torvalds says he needs to be
plainspoken so that the thousands of contributors to the Linux project will
get a clear message of what works and what doesn’t. But Sharp says that that
aggressive tone is bad for Linux. According to her, it’s keeping some good
developers away. Following is an edited transcript of a telephone interview
with Sharp"
Scratch my fucking ass. I'm so sick of it. This young geneation is a
bunch of conformist morons who are offended by Linus and people who's politics
they disagree with, but could care less that they are being actively
numbered, categorized, followed, spied upon and living the life of Cattle.
Seems like you're referring to:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/

That put aside, I agree with Ms. Sharp’s sentiments here. From what I have seen
of what Linus said in E-mail messages, he can be pretty aggressive, tactless,
and insulting, and this has likely been driving away many potential
contributors to the Linux kernel. While it's human to be insulting some time ,
it's not OK to not try to improve in this regard or even advocate an aggressive
tone like Linus does.

One project I know ( http://www.gimp.org/ , which is no doubt of significant
importance ) had been suffering from lack of contributors and active development
effort because of hostility on the part of the existing developers which has
driven away most potential developers. And reportedly, the average age of
contributors to the Linux kernel has been increasing by one year every year for
several years now.

I don't see what the supposed acceptance of massive data gathering has to
do with it. This seems like a completely orthogonal to me.
Post by Ruben Safir
What will it take before they wake up? Will someone need to tatoo their
arms... On no need! You Iphone does it for me!
This is the most intolerant and sheep like generation in western history.
Unlike Roger Daltry, the Kids are NOT alright.
«Say not, “Why were the former days better than these?” For it is not from
wisdom that you ask this.» -- http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/7-10.htm -
Ecclesiastes ~300 B.C. The same scroll says "The words of the wise are said in
comfort.".

I'm also not sure it's peculiar to the current generation, because a certain
female open source contributor I know (who is relatively old and has children
past 20 y.o) told me that if she ever got banned from a project's online forum ,
she'd feel so bad that she won't want to contribute to this project again
(while I who am 1977-born often didn't completely give up after such cases).

Regards,

Shlomi Fish
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan

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Greg KH
2015-12-30 17:32:00 UTC
Permalink
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.

greg k-h
Greg KH
2015-12-30 18:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg KH
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.
Also, I would like to see proof that if this is true, that somehow it is
a "bad thing". Don't people want experienced developers creating
software? Right now this is one of the largest strengths of Linux, the
amount of experience working on the kernel is more than any other
operating system has ever had in the history of computing.

Don't you want people who understand the problem area working on it? Or
do somehow you think that once you have reached 40 years old, you
shouldn't be programming anymore?

greg k-h
Ruben Safir
2015-12-30 20:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg KH
Post by Greg KH
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.
Also, I would like to see proof that if this is true, that somehow it is
a "bad thing". Don't people want experienced developers creating
software? Right now this is one of the largest strengths of Linux, the
amount of experience working on the kernel is more than any other
operating system has ever had in the history of computing.
Don't you want people who understand the problem area working on it? Or
do somehow you think that once you have reached 40 years old, you
shouldn't be programming anymore?
No they don't want a bunch of narrowminded old fogies fucking up there new stuff.

Since when does age and experience count for anything. Don't trust anyone over 30.
You aren't even allowing tracked and DRM to be preinstalled in the kernel.
Post by Greg KH
greg k-h
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
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--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Shlomi Fish
2016-01-04 12:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Greg,

sorry for the late response.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:32:00 -0800
Post by Greg KH
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.
Well, I recall reading it on http://lwn.net/ and some web searching with
site:lwn.net gives me this:

https://lwn.net/Articles/464530/

< QUOTE >
After noting that many of the Kernel Summit (KS) participants were in bed by 9
or 10, Poettering asked whether the kernel community is getting too old or, as
he put it, whether it has become an old man's club. Cox said that he saw a lot
of fresh blood in the community, more than enough to sustain it. Torvalds
noted, though, that the average age at the summit has risen by one year every
year. It's not quite that bad, he said, but he also believes that the KS
attendees are not an accurate reflection of the community as a whole. It tends
to be maintainers that attend the summit, while many of the younger developers
have not yet become maintainers.
< / QUOTE >

I may have misinterpreted this fact, though, as there are many kernel
contributors who were not invited to the kernel summit.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish
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Rik van Riel
2016-01-04 14:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shlomi Fish
Hi Greg,
sorry for the late response.
On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:32:00 -0800
Post by Greg KH
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.
There may well be years where the age has increased by more
than a year.

Bringing new people into the Linux community is not just limited
to young people. There are also a lot of people who used to work
on proprietary operating systems, and are now working on Linux.

People of all ages are joining the Linux community, and it is
hard to say what effect that has on the average age of Linux
developers.
--
All rights reversed.
Ruben Safir
2016-01-19 18:43:17 UTC
Permalink
How could it have gone down when it was so low at the beginning.

It is not the Linux communities fault, however, if all the young
developers have stars in their eyes chasing app gold with javascript
on deadbolted platforms wrapped in a "Open Source" license.
Post by Rik van Riel
Post by Shlomi Fish
Hi Greg,
sorry for the late response.
On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:32:00 -0800
Post by Greg KH
And reportedly, the average age of contributors to the Linux kernel
has been increasing by one year every year for several years now.
Citation please? In my research, this is not true at all, but I would
be glad to consider reports that show I am incorrect, with the data to
back it up.
There may well be years where the age has increased by more
than a year.
Bringing new people into the Linux community is not just limited
to young people. There are also a lot of people who used to work
on proprietary operating systems, and are now working on Linux.
People of all ages are joining the Linux community, and it is
hard to say what effect that has on the average age of Linux
developers.
--
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http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
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Matt Palmer
2016-01-04 22:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shlomi Fish
https://lwn.net/Articles/464530/
< QUOTE >
After noting that many of the Kernel Summit (KS) participants were in bed by 9
or 10, Poettering asked whether the kernel community is getting too old or, as
he put it, whether it has become an old man's club.
Class act all round, that man. Class act.

- Matt
Tony Godshall
2016-01-19 19:20:03 UTC
Permalink
... From what I have seen
of what Linus said in E-mail messages, he can be pretty aggressive, tactless,
and insulting, and this has likely been driving away many potential
contributors to the Linux kernel. While it's human to be insulting some time ,
it's not OK to not try to improve in this regard or even advocate an aggressive
tone like Linus does.
...

who are you to judge? linus gets results. there's a place for nicety
and a place for bluntness. there's a place for those who like
emoticons and a place for those who express directly.
Ruben Safir
2016-01-19 19:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Godshall
... From what I have seen
of what Linus said in E-mail messages, he can be pretty aggressive, tactless,
and insulting, and this has likely been driving away many potential
contributors to the Linux kernel. While it's human to be insulting some time ,
it's not OK to not try to improve in this regard or even advocate an aggressive
tone like Linus does.
...
who are you to judge? linus gets results. there's a place for nicety
and a place for bluntness. there's a place for those who like
emoticons and a place for those who express directly.
Kumb Boiy Yaahh Mother Fucker.

I'm so sick of the pretense that directness and emotionalism is evil.
Post by Tony Godshall
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http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Bob Bernstein
2016-01-20 21:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
Kumb Boiy Yaahh Mother Fucker.
Maybe if you work at it you could be a tad more offensive.
Post by Ruben Safir
I'm so sick of the pretense that directness and emotionalism
is evil.
Ruben, has anyone ever suggested to you that you might be
cognitively impaired? They are pretty good now at diagnosing
this stuff, you know, with neuro-psych testing.

Good luck.
--
Bob Bernstein
Rick Moen
2016-01-21 09:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bernstein
Post by Ruben Safir
Kumb Boiy Yaahh Mother Fucker.
Maybe if you work at it you could be a tad more offensive.
Pretty sure it was a failed attempt at semi-humour via semi-reference to
fictional cop John McClane.[1]

Ruben, I don't believe anyone said there was anything wrong with
emotion. OTOH, it might be reasonably observed that elevated emotion is
not inherently _interesting_ -- except to your mom, your dog, and other
parties with intense personal interest.

[1] http://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/bonus-daily-cartoon-remembering-alan-rickman
Bob Bernstein
2016-01-22 20:30:38 UTC
Permalink
...a failed attempt at semi-humour via semi-reference to
fictional cop John McClane.
You mean all I missed was a reference to Hollywood trivia? What
a relief!

Thanks,
--
Bob Bernstein
Rick Moen
2016-01-22 20:47:57 UTC
Permalink
You mean all I missed was a reference to Hollywood trivia? What a
relief!
An excuse to enjoy the late Alan Rickman's fine performance as Hans
Gruber is not a waste, IMO, albeit sadly lacking Linux relevance.
(/me waves from SCALE14x.)

FWIW:

Shlomi Fish
2016-03-01 19:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,

sorry for the late response. Moreover, please note that you should reply
exclusively to the mailing list's address or otherwise your E-mail may be
discarded by the mailing list software (a fact which I am not happy with,
but lack the power to change.)

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:20:03 -0800
Post by Tony Godshall
... From what I have seen
of what Linus said in E-mail messages, he can be pretty aggressive,
tactless, and insulting, and this has likely been driving away many
potential contributors to the Linux kernel. While it's human to be
insulting some time , it's not OK to not try to improve in this regard or
even advocate an aggressive tone like Linus does.
...
who are you to judge?
Either a criticism has some merit, or it lacks merit, or it's somewhere in the
spectrum between. The origin of the criticism (= whoever voiced it) does not
matter and should not be used to disqualify or ascertain it.

Anyway, I am quite qualified to testify (because I contributed some patches
and commits to it) that from what I saw, the GIMP’s core developers
had treated potential developers with impatience and rudeness, and as a result
have driven most of them away. The end result was that GIMP is now being
developed slowly, in large part due to lack of active contributors.

It's hard to know whether there's a similar risk for the Linux kernel’s
project, because it has much more momentum, and many people are being paid to
contribute to it and will tolerate an abusive tone from the more
core contributors (though they still won't be too happy about it). But I feel
it's not doing anyone any good.
Post by Tony Godshall
linus gets results. there's a place for nicety
and a place for bluntness. there's a place for those who like
emoticons and a place for those who express directly.
I agree that Linus gets results, but that doesn't mean that:

1. He is managing things in a perfect manner.

2. He cannot possibly improve.

3. He gets these results in part because of his sometimes abusive tone, rather
than *in spite* of it.

If I submitted a patch to an open source project and was told to improve it,
then I would be much more willing to do so if I were told so in a gentle,
friendly, and constructive manner (pointing to the detected deficiencies in my
changes and how they should be fixed), rather than by receiving a missive of
personal attacks about what kind of drugs they believe I smoke and how much I
was supposedly so stupid as a baby that they wonder how my mother was able to
breastfeed me. Which response will *you* treat better?

Such a thing may not drive me completely away, because I tend to
have quite a thick skin and don't give up very easily, but it will likely drive
away many people.

To quote this song - "Everybody wants respect - just a little bit.":

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bodeans%20closer%20to%20free

A certain female open source developer/contributor I talked with (who is already
a mother and in her 50s or so) told me that if she ever got blocked from one of
a project's online forums, she will completely stay away of this project and
wouldn't want to have anything to do with them again. It happened to me quite a
few times already, and I didn't give up on these projects immediately, but I'm
a guy and quite young and patient and like I said I probably have thick skin,
but not everyone has these qualities.

If you think an insulting tone actually encourages people to contribute rather
than discourages them and may risk driving them completely away, please tell me
why you think this is the case. I can tell you that it didn't work for GIMP and
I doubt it actually benefits the Linux kernel.

But who am I to judge? ;-)

Regards,

Shlomi Fish
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Don Marti
2015-12-06 05:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Ever notice how some of the most meritorious hackers are also some of
the biggest SJWs? (check it out, this is email, I can wait.)
Does this make sense?
Of course it does. And you don't need boring academic postmodern this
or identity that to explain it. Mainstream open source SJWism is
clearly the winning strategy from a behavioral economics and
evolutionary psychology point of view.
Supporting the expansion of the demographic pool that the Free
Software scene can draw from is a hell of a signal.
Listening to what the world's population wants is just common sense.
Speaking and acting in a way that reflects awareness of cultural
difference is also just common sense.
There appears to be some difference of view about some episodes of
online vigilantism carried out in the name of inclusiveness, most often
alleging that open source projects and their leaders have been guilty of
racism, sexism, anti-LGBTQIAism, and other things (viz., Sarah Sharp's
recent odd allegations on LKML followed by high-profile flouncing off).
Sundry remedies are then requested by the critics: removal of coders
from their own projects, codes of conduct with (often) very odd
provisions -- see GitHub CoC debacle -- and so on.
Both the SJW side and the anti-SJW side have
their A-listers and their net negative contribution
participants. In the case of SJWs, it's mostly people
who produce no code or user support, just code of
conduct pull requests. In the case of anti-SJWs, it's
mostly people who produce no code or user support,
just threats of violence.
Post by Rick Moen
Your posting might be an oblique way of asking 'Is Eric Raymond just
being a jackass?' Or perhaps not. FWIW, I advised Eric that his
then-draft broadside against 'SJWs' would be counterproductive, that he
should tone his editorial way down, and that while discussing specifics
of incidents such as the 'djangoconcardiff' vigilante might be useful,
railing against ideology was not. Eric accepted all of my other
corrections and suggestions, but rejected that one utterly.
This is not about Eric -- I did go back and check his
recent blog posts, though. Eric is, as far as I can
tell, a relatively rare prominent A-list contributor
on the anti-SJW side (who actually works on code
of value to other developers such as GPS support,
NTP implementation, and tools to convert projects
between version control systems.)

Meanwhile, other key developers are prominent SJWs.
My main point is that SJW activity tends to reflect
well enough on the person doing it that it's a
worthwhile signal to invest time and resources in.
Post by Rick Moen
Meanwhile, your point is of course well taken, that outreach and an
inclusive emphasis yield great benefits. Equally, naturally there are
conduct problems within various open source projects, because... humans.
being project leaders, e.g. 'You're in charge; act that way'. And if
outside critics (or anyone else) are still dissatisifed with how open
source leaders have processed their complaints, their ultimate remedy is
always available: the right to fork.
E.g., critic 'djangoconcardiff' avers that a Puerto Rican coder who runs
a Django project had declined to merge several patches the critic
asserts were from trans or gay code contributors, and feels social
justice concerns obliged the coder to both accept those patches and sign
a Code of Conduct requiring Right Thinking[tm] henceforth.[1] The coder
says no. Quelle horreur! Has injustice been committed? No,
pseudonymous complainer 'djangoconcardiff' is utterly free to relieve
dissatisfaction by forking his/her git repo and then running his/her
fork any way at all.
All such dissatisifed critics need is willingness to do the work. If
unwilling, they evidently weren't serious. Fin. Roll credits.
Sure. Another factor is that online "identity" is
cheap. (Reddit threads have comments where the joke
is in the throwaway username.)

Making a GitHub account is a five-minute task.
Making an "open source project" account just to convey
a message is a little more work, but not much.

https://gitlab.com/femsf/toleranux
http://www.advogato.org/proj/Monkey%20Nutsack%20Linux/

The only way to have the argument in a reasonable
amount of time is to pay attention to real
contributors on both sides. Twitter users have to
block the anti-SJWs and fake anti-SJWs who set up new
Twitter accounts just to troll and spew, and project
hosting site users have to ignore SJWs and fake SJWs
who set up just to make a point. GitHub doesn't seem
to make this easy.

(Yes, I'm both an elitist and an SJW sympathizer.)
Post by Rick Moen
Eric railing against 'SJWs' was a sideshow and waste of time. However,
Don, your equating said epithet with 'supporting the expansion of the
demographic pool that the Free Software scene can draw from' also seems
problematic.
There _is_ a recent pattern of destructive conduct some call 'SJW'
activism: rage-mobbing, doxxing, trying to get people fired from their
jobs, and outright character assassination of anyone deemed an obstacle.
I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a sabotage playbook and meme
complex making the rounds.
My acquaintance Will Shetterly, longtime science fiction writer, wrote a
history of these tactics' development over the last decade within SF
publishing and fandom on the Internet, and wrote (in 2014) an
http://sjwar.blogspot.com/2014/03/my-book-is-done-and-so-am-ion-how-to.html
Whatever problem the Free Software scene has, the
Science Fiction scene seems to have it worse.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this whole
argument is flaring up as development conversations
have shifted from mailing lists (where nobody
can hear you *plonk*) to Twitter and GitHub, where
rage-clicking is "engagement" and throwaway accounts
are monetizable users until proven otherwise.

We're facing a real productivity cost of relying
on platforms that win by drawing more people in to
arguments, not on platforms that focus on working
better for users who are willing to make a time
committment.

(Not as bad as the productivity costs of this stuff:
https://tommorris.org/posts/9403 but still.)
--
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http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
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Rick Moen
2015-12-06 08:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Both the SJW side and the anti-SJW side have their A-listers and their
net negative contribution participants.
Here I see a possible definitional swamp needing draining. What
_specifically_ are you deeming to define/delineate these two camps, in
the context of open source? I encounter this term primarily as an
epithet football, and ill-defined.

Shetterly, in science fiction publishing context, cites a specific set
of tenets shared by the specific people whose doings he discusses: that
what matters most is social identity, and that privilege and oppression
must be fiercely combated through radical reform at every level of
thought, speech, and action, because they are institutionalised in
everything we say and do, and so must restructure everything in life to
nullify the effect of unearned advantages and raise up the marginalised.
Shetterly's opinion is that 'identarian' is a better name, but 'SJW' is
prevalent in online polemics and elsewhere.

He also tends to identify them by the tactical toolkit a loose gang in
the SF world have used, this past decade: rage-mobbing, doxxing, trying
to get people fired from their jobs, and outright character
assassination of anyone deemed an obstacle. Which he then details.

But that raises the question of what in Gehenna _you_ mean when you use
the terms 'SJW' and 'anti-SJW', Don.

You could mean 'SJw' to mean 'looks fondly on expanding the demographic
pool that the Free Software scene can draw from'. in which case, I'm
certainly an SJW, you're one, Eric Raymond is one (even as he rants
against 'SJWs'), etc. But that would utterly miss about three sigma of
what this slightly fuzzy polemical term means when used by practically
everyone else. Most people mean approximately what Shetterly does in
his epub -- more often the sabotage tactical toolkit, as the boring
academic postmodern this or identity that, that Shetterly also
discusses, that lies behind it, is less well known.

So, having secured my wallet in the vicinity of flying abstractions,
I'll ask: What specific A-lister 'SJWs' are you contemplating, and
wherein lies that quality, in your view? This will let readers make
sure you and they are talking about the same thing, or alternatively
identify what different things you and they are calling by that name.
The only way to have the argument in a reasonable amount of time is to
pay attention to real contributors on both sides.
You bet.
In the case of SJWs, it's mostly people who produce no code or user
support, just code of conduct pull requests. In the case of
anti-SJWs, it's mostly people who produce no code or user support,
just threats of violence.
FWIW, I'll agree with that even _without_ clarity on definitions, and
likewise about its origin in the rise of cheap throwaway 'nyms that get
taken seriously by people who really ought to know better.

I suspect the threats of violence pretty much all emanate from wandering
Gamergaters who have exactly zero actual interest in open source / free
software, but just relish another battlefield. And maybe the same is
true of the likes of 'djangoconcardiff'. After all, who can tell?
Meanwhile, other key developers are prominent SJWs.
Am holding that thought, as I'd like to know what this means in the real
world.
My main point is that SJW activity tends to reflect well enough on the
person doing it that it's a worthwhile signal to invest time and
resources in.
Hold on, what? Maybe I'm just still acclimating to Atlantic Standard
Time, but this reads like unalloyed handwavium to me. Would you please
indulge a poor confused sysadmin by being a good bit more specific?
What 'activity'? In what regard does said activity reflect well on that
person? And why does asserted-meritorious activity merit involvement in
that person's open source project?

Are you saying, to invent a hypothetical, that if both Firefox and
Chromium are interesting codebases, but one is run by a leader making
vague noises about a meaningless Code of Conduct and the other isn't, I
would be wiser to invest time and resources in the one that is?

I suspect that you are doing what in rhetoric is called the fallacy of
affirming the consequent or perhaps petitio principii (assuming the
initial point), something like 'SJWs want outreach. We want
outreach. Therefore, we should like SJWs.'

Sorry, that's more than a bit tail-chase-y. Being strongly for
expansion of the open source / free software demographic doesn't
necessitate a specific ideological mindset, let alone one best known for
attacks on open source projects and their leaders.

Most particularly, I suspect you are asserting without discussion or
evidence that some unspecified 'activity' expands the demographic pool
that the Free Software scene can draw from, and is therefore clearly the
winning strategy from a behavioural economics and evolutionary psychology
point of view. Neat trick, but _what is_ this activity, what beyond
thick coatings of handwavium demonstrates it to be expanding the
demographic pool that the Free Software scene can draw from, where can
we see this going on, and what about it makes you call it 'SJWism'?

Perhaps you might be willing to back up and talk specifics. I find the
air a bit thin, here in abstraction-land.
Rick Moen
2015-12-06 06:24:19 UTC
Permalink
[Just seeing Don's Sat, 5 Dec 2015 21:52:21 -0800 comment. As I'm
sipping Internet through a thin satellite-link straw from a ship,
I may be a long time commenting. Off the top of my head: I still
see just discussion of ideology, which personally I find meaningless and
makes me reach for my wallet. I find actual deeds meaningful and
gaseous policy language to be junk or worse.]


Don, following is a little background for Eric's recent rant(s).

As it happens, he and I were on... opposite? No, different sides
of a dust-up, not in hackerdom but rather science fiction literature
and fandom, that blew up spectacularly in August 2015.


To summarise the summary of a summary, in the late 2000s / early 2010s,
there had been squabbles in and around the Science Fiction Writers of
America (SFWA), a malnourished trade guild of professional SF writers,
for several years on largely symbolic issues of sexism, racism, etc.
SFWA is a private group limited to professionally published writers.
Its members vote the annual Nebula Awards. My wife Deirdre has been a
SFWA member; I am not.

We outside SFWA were somewhat amused by the SFWA antics, in which there
was bad behaviour on both sides and rage-mobbing of the organisation by
mostly pseudonymous outside critics. Shetterly's epub covers this among
other things.


The last couple of years, SFWA's teapot threatened to spill its tempest
onto large outside volunteer convention-running group WSFS (World
Science Fiction Society), which votes the annual Hugo Awards for best
science fiction, given during a ceremony at a large five-day party
called the World Science Fiction Convention ('Worldcon'). 2015's
Worldcon was 'Sasquan', in Spokane. The prior year's was LonCon 3 in
London. I was (as usual) one of the volunteer Worldcon staffers at
Sasquan, one of the people who run it and vote in its parliamentary
assembly.

Sasquan, like the prior two Worldcons, was targeted by ideological war
_against_ 'SJWs' run by a multi-year organised campaign alleging WSFS
had been taken over by 'SJWs' (which is incorrect; I'd have noticed),
and seeking to address a perceived move away from classic Heinlein-ian
SF, through tactical Hugo Award voting and accusing fanatically neutral
and democratic WSFS of being under shadowy ideologue control. In 2015,
this effort succeeded by filling all slots during the 'nominations'
phase of voting (phase 1 of 2) for five of the ~20 categories. One of
the nominees in those Hugo categories was Mr. Eric Raymond, nominated
for the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Science Fiction Author on
the basis of a single (quite good) short story.

(Note: Because the Campbell Award is for the _entire body of work_ of a
new writer, it would be incredible to win on the basis of one short
story. Even Eric thought this very unlikely, and he was right.)

A great deal of Internet noise followed during 2015. During the August
Hugo Award ceremony, it turned out that traditional Hugo voters rose up
spontaneously to swat down the anti-'SJW' campaign, electing to grant no
2015 award in all five of the affected categories. Further, WSFS
regulars (including me) are in the process of amending the nominations
algorithm to fix the exploit leveraged in 2015. (Web-search 'E Pluribus
Hugo' if interested.)


Eric seems to have walked away from this experience angry about 'SJWs'
foiling his gang at Sasquan (my inference; I might be wrong). If I may
presume to speak for Worldcon convention-runners, we walked away with a
different impression: We're royally annoyed at a time-wasting ideologue
sideshow that made our lives difficult and had nothing to do with the
Hugos. We're also thoroughly cheesed at the notion of our being in the
thrall of a non-existent political cabal, when we're in fact a model of
transparent process and are also highly focussed on pragmatic concerns,
having no time for that other bullshit, and when we've weathered
political storms Eric has never dreamed of. (Web-search 'Breendoggle'.)


That was a long walk to arrive at a point, so I'll try to make it
worthwhile: I see WSFS as analogous to management of a typical open
source project. We're strongly devoted to being welcoming and mindful
of diversity. At the same time, we also have a job to do, and the job
comes first. Worldcon-conrunners' first-level response to people saying
'The Hugo Awards have no credibility any more because the voters vote
only for left-wing message fiction' is to say 'Gosh, feel free to create
your own Real SF Award, then.'

Which is why you should not be surprised when I say that the proper
remedy of the disgruntled open source complainer -- irrespective of
tenets -- is to remember he/she has the right to fork, and to kindly
shut up and code.

It's not that Worldcon-conrunners are hostile to 'SJWs' -- or to
self-appointed enemies like Eric. It's just that we have a job to do.

Somehow, I think open source leaders, once they study a few of the
rage-mobbing, CoC-urging incidents like the 'djangoconcardiff' one,
'Opalgate' (https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/3ah9xt/on_opalgate/),
and the GitHub CoC debacle, will come to a similar conclusion.

And I think they'd reach that conclusion sooner if Eric hadn't made this
results-focussed position look needlessly partisan through his recent
screeds, BTW.
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