Discussion:
[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?
Bob Bernstein
2015-08-01 03:06:05 UTC
Permalink
To anyone's knowledge are there projects afoot to create a new linux
distro representing, basically, Debian Jessie but without all the
systemd and Network Manager um stuff. Or, have I thus basically
defined a fork of Wheezy? Perhaps one of those is underway?

tia,
--
Bob Bernstein

"No matter how big the problem is, you can always run away from it."

Dom Irrera
Rick Moen
2015-08-01 04:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bernstein
To anyone's knowledge are there projects afoot to create a new linux
distro representing, basically, Debian Jessie but without all the
systemd and Network Manager um stuff. Or, have I thus basically
defined a fork of Wheezy? Perhaps one of those is underway?
Devuan is a thing. It even furnishes vdev (not tried) as a way to give
udev the heave-ho. It's probably pretty alpha, still.

But is that the right problem to solve?

I've found it trivial to migrate a Debian Jessie system sideways to
OpenRC, which I've found a pleasantly well engineered and somewhat
BSDish relief from AT&T-derived SysV cruft. Works fine - ergo, no
compelling present need for a distro fork even for dedicated systemd
haters, IMVAO. (Views Differ[tm].)

LWN.net's article at the time of the OpenRC package being new to Debian
(but already solid) from three years ago might still merit reading:
http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/

At least some in the Debian community are particularly annoyed by the
systemd team's unwillingness to take patches for portability to kernels
beyond Linux. That led Adam Borowski to jokingly dismiss OpenRC
because it lacks "a hostile upstream". More seriously, Leigh pointed
out that OpenRC uses some of the same features as systemd, but does so
with portability in mind: [...]
--
Cheers, "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools,
Rick Moen but that the lightning ain't distributed right."
***@linuxmafia.com -- Mark Twain
McQ! (4x80)
Rick Moen
2015-08-01 04:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bernstein
To anyone's knowledge are there projects afoot to create a new linux
distro representing, basically, Debian Jessie but without all the
systemd and Network Manager um stuff. Or, have I thus basically
defined a fork of Wheezy? Perhaps one of those is underway?
Devuan is a thing. It even furnishes vdev (not tried) as a way to give
udev the heave-ho. It's probably pretty alpha, still.

But is that the right problem to solve?

I've found it trivial to migrate a Debian Jessie system sideways to
OpenRC, which I've found a pleasantly well engineered and somewhat
BSDish relief from AT&T-derived SysV cruft. Works fine - ergo, no
compelling present need for a distro fork even for dedicated systemd
haters, IMVAO. (Views Differ[tm].)

LWN.net's article at the time of the OpenRC package being new to Debian
(but already solid) from three years ago might still merit reading:
http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/

At least some in the Debian community are particularly annoyed by the
systemd team's unwillingness to take patches for portability to kernels
beyond Linux. That led Adam Borowski to jokingly dismiss OpenRC
because it lacks "a hostile upstream". More seriously, Leigh pointed
out that OpenRC uses some of the same features as systemd, but does so
with portability in mind: [...]
--
Cheers, "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools,
Rick Moen but that the lightning ain't distributed right."
***@linuxmafia.com -- Mark Twain
McQ! (4x80)
Rick Moen
2016-05-14 20:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
I've found it trivial to migrate a Debian Jessie system sideways to
OpenRC, which I've found a pleasantly well engineered and somewhat
BSDish relief from AT&T-derived SysV cruft. Works fine - ergo, no
compelling present need for a distro fork even for dedicated systemd
haters, IMVAO. (Views Differ[tm].)
LWN.net's article at the time of the OpenRC package being new to Debian
http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/
At least some in the Debian community are particularly annoyed by the
systemd team's unwillingness to take patches for portability to kernels
beyond Linux. That led Adam Borowski to jokingly dismiss OpenRC
because it lacks "a hostile upstream". More seriously, Leigh pointed
out that OpenRC uses some of the same features as systemd, but does so
with portability in mind: [...]
Completing that task:

I've now completely documented how to run Debian 8 'Jessie' with OpenRC
and _keep_ it on OpenRC without allowing any dependency hairballs to
drag the system onto systemd.
http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html (I have also
added said new page to
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Other_useful_sites .)

I paid careful attention to Marc Merlin's point about Debian package
problems because of complex dependency chains, using a little
scripting to create what I believe is a complete list of where problems
will lie -- and some suggestions for how to fix those.
--
Cheers, "My life has a superb cast,
Rick Moen but I cannot figure out the plot."
***@linuxmafia.com -- Ashleigh Brilliant
McQ! (4x80)
Ed Carp
2016-05-14 23:38:49 UTC
Permalink
I'm particularly annoyed by systemd, period. Nothing wrong with the
way things were - systemd goes completely against the Unix idea of one
small utility doing one thing well, and it just comes across as change
for the sake of change as a monument to someone's ego.

No matter - hooray for Rick! Thank you! I hope I don't have to worry
about this when Linux Mint goes systemd in the next release
(reportedly)...
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Rick Moen
I've found it trivial to migrate a Debian Jessie system sideways to
OpenRC, which I've found a pleasantly well engineered and somewhat
BSDish relief from AT&T-derived SysV cruft. Works fine - ergo, no
compelling present need for a distro fork even for dedicated systemd
haters, IMVAO. (Views Differ[tm].)
LWN.net's article at the time of the OpenRC package being new to Debian
http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/
At least some in the Debian community are particularly annoyed by the
systemd team's unwillingness to take patches for portability to kernels
beyond Linux. That led Adam Borowski to jokingly dismiss OpenRC
because it lacks "a hostile upstream". More seriously, Leigh pointed
out that OpenRC uses some of the same features as systemd, but does so
with portability in mind: [...]
I've now completely documented how to run Debian 8 'Jessie' with OpenRC
and _keep_ it on OpenRC without allowing any dependency hairballs to
drag the system onto systemd.
http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html (I have also
added said new page to
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Other_useful_sites .)
I paid careful attention to Marc Merlin's point about Debian package
problems because of complex dependency chains, using a little
scripting to create what I believe is a complete list of where problems
will lie -- and some suggestions for how to fix those.
--
Cheers, "My life has a superb cast,
Rick Moen but I cannot figure out the plot."
McQ! (4x80)
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set
for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
Greg KH
2016-05-15 00:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Carp
I'm particularly annoyed by systemd, period. Nothing wrong with the
way things were
You are kidding, right? Have you ever worked at that level? Tried to
manage processes and services in a sane manner? I've been dealing with
that problem since my first paid Linux job in 2000, and it didn't get
finally resolved until systemd. There were lots of things wrong with
how things "were" before, perhaps you never worked down there?
Post by Ed Carp
- systemd goes completely against the Unix idea of one
small utility doing one thing well, and it just comes across as change
for the sake of change as a monument to someone's ego.
Really, you want to drag this old disputed argument out again? Tell me
how your old init system was a "do one thing well" program?

And as far as ego goes, do you not take pride in the work you do?
systemd was written by people working for _all_ distros, it was not the
work of just one person at all, to act otherwise is a huge disservice to
those other developers.

Just one word of advice, almost _everyone_ who has worked on a distro at
that level of the "plumbing" has helped out with systemd as it is
somehow obvious to them that this is a much better solution than what
they previously had. I guess you don't trust those developers, which is
fine, but you should seriously consider just why you feel that way.
Post by Ed Carp
No matter - hooray for Rick! Thank you! I hope I don't have to worry
about this when Linux Mint goes systemd in the next release
(reportedly)...
Makes sense, why would you want to try to keep a fork from your "parent"
distro? Companies that actually funded their developers are even
smarter than that.

Remember back when Linux users were the ones pushing the boundries of
things, solving real problems and being happy to handle major changes in
the quest to making something better? I sure do. The real question is
why have the others on this list, who have been complaining about a
system library being replaced that they didn't have anything to do with,
have forgotten about why they started using Linux in the first place.

I mean, if you like openrc so much, why not just move back to solaris,
there is an "open" version floating around somewhere that desperately
needs users and developers...

Or just use Gentoo or slackware if you don't like change and wish to
remain in the 1990's.

</get off my lawn>

greg k-h
Ed Carp
2016-05-15 07:35:54 UTC
Permalink
I'm certainly not going to dignify this personal attack by responding,
except to say that (1) I manage about 1200 RHEL servers, and (2)
systemd certainly has *not* made my life easier, not by a long shot.
My team uses Ansible to deploy and manage these systems, I will say
that Ansible hides a lot of the systemd messiness in the service
module - but it's a completely different way of doing things, and IMO
not for the better.

And if you get off attacking people for expressing their opinion, I
guess you *do* have a problem.
Post by Greg KH
Post by Ed Carp
I'm particularly annoyed by systemd, period. Nothing wrong with the
way things were
You are kidding, right? Have you ever worked at that level? Tried to
manage processes and services in a sane manner? I've been dealing with
that problem since my first paid Linux job in 2000, and it didn't get
finally resolved until systemd. There were lots of things wrong with
how things "were" before, perhaps you never worked down there?
Post by Ed Carp
- systemd goes completely against the Unix idea of one
small utility doing one thing well, and it just comes across as change
for the sake of change as a monument to someone's ego.
Really, you want to drag this old disputed argument out again? Tell me
how your old init system was a "do one thing well" program?
And as far as ego goes, do you not take pride in the work you do?
systemd was written by people working for _all_ distros, it was not the
work of just one person at all, to act otherwise is a huge disservice to
those other developers.
Just one word of advice, almost _everyone_ who has worked on a distro at
that level of the "plumbing" has helped out with systemd as it is
somehow obvious to them that this is a much better solution than what
they previously had. I guess you don't trust those developers, which is
fine, but you should seriously consider just why you feel that way.
Post by Ed Carp
No matter - hooray for Rick! Thank you! I hope I don't have to worry
about this when Linux Mint goes systemd in the next release
(reportedly)...
Makes sense, why would you want to try to keep a fork from your "parent"
distro? Companies that actually funded their developers are even
smarter than that.
Remember back when Linux users were the ones pushing the boundries of
things, solving real problems and being happy to handle major changes in
the quest to making something better? I sure do. The real question is
why have the others on this list, who have been complaining about a
system library being replaced that they didn't have anything to do with,
have forgotten about why they started using Linux in the first place.
I mean, if you like openrc so much, why not just move back to solaris,
there is an "open" version floating around somewhere that desperately
needs users and developers...
Or just use Gentoo or slackware if you don't like change and wish to
remain in the 1990's.
</get off my lawn>
greg k-h
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set
for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
Greg KH
2016-05-15 18:29:29 UTC
Permalink
A: No.
Q: Should I include quotations after my reply?

http://daringfireball.net/2007/07/on_top
Post by Ed Carp
I'm certainly not going to dignify this personal attack by responding,
Yet you did :)

And it wasn't "personal" at all, please go re-read it again.
Post by Ed Carp
except to say that (1) I manage about 1200 RHEL servers, and (2)
systemd certainly has *not* made my life easier, not by a long shot.
My team uses Ansible to deploy and manage these systems, I will say
that Ansible hides a lot of the systemd messiness in the service
module - but it's a completely different way of doing things, and IMO
not for the better.
So perhaps your issue is with Ansible and how it handles systemd? How
is that systemd's fault? Have you brought it up with the Ansible
developers? Have they worked to help you resolve your objections?
Post by Ed Carp
And if you get off attacking people for expressing their opinion, I
guess you *do* have a problem.
You said a number of things that aren't true (unix way and all that) and
I protested that statement, not anything specifically about you at all.
You were objecting to the work that I, and people I personally trust,
have done and have given to you and the world for free. You feel that
somehow we are doing it just because we wanted to make _your_ life more
miserable. Did we force you to use systemd? No, the vendor _you_ trust
made that decision, perhaps you shouldn't trust that vendor and move to
a different one. You have choices, no one is _forcing_ you to use
Linux, least of all the developers who write it.

The BSDs are great, they need all the users they can get, and Linux
needs the competition, please move to them if you really like the
old-style init system.

And again people, this is linux-elitists, how "elite" are you if you
complain about having to learn a new tool?

bah humbug,

greg k-h
/dev/rob0
2016-05-16 16:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg KH
Post by Ed Carp
I'm certainly not going to dignify this personal attack by
responding,
Yet you did :)
And it wasn't "personal" at all, please go re-read it again.
+1

Ed, I completely agree with Greg here (about the "attack", not
necessarily about systemd.) Fragile feelings and weak egos on
mailing lists like this make for a toxic environment and lead to
greater difficulties in communication.

Even if it WAS an attack, so what? Be mature and responsible, just
stick to the issues. Whining about personal attacks is every bit as
unbecoming as are the attacks.
Post by Greg KH
Post by Ed Carp
And if you get off attacking people for expressing their opinion,
I guess you *do* have a problem.
You said a number of things that aren't true (unix way and all
that) and I protested that statement, not anything specifically
about you at all.
Indeed, a case of PKB.
Post by Greg KH
You were objecting to the work that I, and people I personally
trust, have done and have given to you and the world for free. You
feel that somehow we are doing it just because we wanted to make
_your_ life more miserable. Did we force you to use systemd? No,
the vendor _you_ trust made that decision, perhaps you shouldn't
trust that vendor and move to a different one.
Nevertheless, systemd is making it difficult for GNU/Linux
distributors to continue without systemd. You [Greg] mentioned
Slackware upthread, and I know that Slackware is feeling the pinch.
I'm sure that's directly related to the unusually long time we're
seeing since the previous Slackware release.
Post by Greg KH
You have choices, no one is _forcing_ you to use Linux, least of
all the developers who write it.
The BSDs are great, they need all the users they can get, and Linux
needs the competition, please move to them if you really like the
old-style init system.
Right, this might be the way forward for us. I like Linux for my
laptops & desktops because of the excellent hardware support, and
mostly ... just because. Inertia. I've been in GNU/Linux a very
long time. I know it well.
Post by Greg KH
And again people, this is linux-elitists, how "elite" are you if
you complain about having to learn a new tool?
Yes, I can learn *BSD if I choose to do it, and I already have some
insight into non-GNU implementations of various tools. I'd rather
stay with Linux, but you're quite right, no one is forcing me to
remain.

That said, I'm not as vehemently opposed to systemd on end-user
machines, so I might stay with Linux laptops and move to a BSD for
other uses.

Also, I can't deny the good points Greg has made, because I'm a mere
admin/enduser. I am fairly familiar with the cruft that comprises
Slackware init scripts, so I am sure that Better Ways exist.
Post by Greg KH
bah humbug,
--
http://rob0.nodns4.us/
Ruben Safir
2016-05-16 18:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by /dev/rob0
Post by Greg KH
Post by Ed Carp
I'm certainly not going to dignify this personal attack by
responding,
Yet you did :)
And it wasn't