[linux-elitists] PengPod engineers for a new project

[Don Saklad]

Neal Peacock
PengPod Blog
http://pengpod.com/blog/entry/job-opportunity-for-linux-enthusiast
Make sure you keep coming back to check out our latest blog post, to get up tp date information on PengPod's Linux based devices.

Job opportunity for Linux enthusiast
Want to get paid to work on open source software? Join team PengPod!

PengPod is seeking engineers for a new project.
Work is focused around kernel modifications, software repackaging and porting of existing distributions to a new hardware device.

Applicants must be able to work independently and should have strong problem solving skills.
A history of active involvement with the open source software community is a major plus.

Feel free to provide your github name, IRC handle, forum name or similar credentials to demonstrate your level of involvement.
Remote or local work in Orlando, FL is acceptable.

Compensation is available initially as a percentage of profits and within 1-2 months salaried positions will be available.
Can't work full-time? You will still be considered, especially if you are interested in becoming full time later on, just send us what your can manage and we will consider it.

Must have knowledge:
C/C++ Programming
GNU/Linux systems administration
Linux software packaging
Linux Kernel Drivers

Other desired knowledge
Android/Cyanogenmod building and customization
Ubuntu Touch
Linaro
Tizen
Mer/Nemo Mobile
Plasma Active
Familiar with several distributions
ARM processors

http://pengpod.com/about-us/contact-us
You can use the contact form above or email us directly
admin at pengpod dot com

Resumes are fine, also please include a little bit about your skills, schedule (if not full time) and compensation you are seeking.
http://pengpod.com/blog/entry/job-opportunity-for-linux-enthusiast

[Greg Folkert]

Post by Don Saklad
Neal Peacock
PengPod Blog
http://pengpod.com/blog/entry/job-opportunity-for-linux-enthusiast
Make sure you keep coming back to check out our latest blog post, to get up tp date information on PengPod's Linux based devices.
Job opportunity for Linux enthusiast
Want to get paid to work on open source software? Join team PengPod!

[SNIP]

Does Don even understand what this list is?

It *IS NOT* a list to ask "How do I figure out my Linux systems and how
to use it", this is a list where _most_ (I use that terms loosely
here...) of the people subscribed... mostly know the inside and out of
them. Hence the "Linux Elitists" and our attitude about stuff like this.
Right Rick?

It *IS NOT* a list to publicize your/a Blog... to try and raise traffic
and hits. Or even trying to be "courteous" and let us know about Job
Openings... or the latest News on the Entar-Web... or the latest meme or
the thing that is so last Thursday.

What I want to know is: Does Don, really qualify for being a elitist?
Does he even know if he does or not? Am I really asking this question?

Don Saklad soon to be in a certain file.

[Tilghman Lesher]

Post by Greg Folkert

Post by Don Saklad
Neal Peacock
PengPod Blog
http://pengpod.com/blog/entry/job-opportunity-for-linux-enthusiast
Make sure you keep coming back to check out our latest blog post, to get up tp date information on PengPod's Linux based devices.
Job opportunity for Linux enthusiast
Want to get paid to work on open source software? Join team PengPod!

[SNIP]
Does Don even understand what this list is?

If you have not already Googled his name, I suggest that you do so.
It's an eye-opening experience.

My current working theory is that one of us recently insulted Richard
Stallman, or Stallman is simply irritated that this isn't named the
"gnu-linux-elitists" list, and he's using Don for retaliation. It
would explain how Don got a "gnu.org" email address.

-Tilghman

[Rick Moen]

Post by Greg Folkert
Right Rick?

(Do I have 'masochist' written on my forehead, or what? Also, are you
exercising extreme conservation on commas?)

1. Personally, I see no problem requiring listadmin intervention.
2. But I'm not listadmin here. If unsure how to send a listadmin
offlist mail on an administrative concern, kindly consult the List-Help
header. KTHXBYE!

Post by Greg Folkert
...a certain file.

My late mother used to advise 'A gentleman never gives offence
accidentally', and I would add '...or goes around in public proclaiming
whom he's plonking'. But whatever works for you.

[Don Marti]

Post by Rick Moen

Post by Greg Folkert
Right Rick?

(Do I have 'masochist' written on my forehead, or what? Also, are you
exercising extreme conservation on commas?)
1. Personally, I see no problem requiring listadmin intervention.
2. But I'm not listadmin here. If unsure how to send a listadmin
offlist mail on an administrative concern, kindly consult the List-Help
header. KTHXBYE!

I'm listadmin for this list.

List Policy is here:
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists

Let's see...not too many rules, and job postings
are not forbidden. So it's not like the SVLUG list,
where List Management will read you the riot act for
posting a job listing. (I'm not sure about this
particular listing, though. I suppose working for
"percentage of profits" would be fine if you get to
calculate the profits--see the Ledger thread:
http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2012-December/013431.html
)

When the list had higher traffic, I would add rules
every so often in an attempt to bring traffic down,
but I haven't had to do that in a while. (Is everyone
blogging instead?)

[David Edmondson]

Post by Don Marti
When the list had higher traffic, I would add rules
every so often in an attempt to bring traffic down,
but I haven't had to do that in a while. (Is everyone
blogging instead?)

There are no linux elitists left. Or everyone is a linux elitist. Or
something.

[Teh Entar-Nick]

Post by David Edmondson

When the list had higher traffic, I would add rules every so often
in an attempt to bring traffic down, but I haven't had to do that in
a while. (Is everyone blogging instead?)

When even the xkcd what-if blog's RSS can stay broken for weeks, it's a
sign that blogging as we think of it is issuing its death rattle.

Post by David Edmondson
There are no linux elitists left. Or everyone is a linux elitist. Or
something.

When the rights-abridging consumer mainstream is Android on Linux, all
that's left are GNU Elitists.

Google is our Symbolics.

[Teh Entar-Nick]

Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Google is our Symbolics.

'was', not 'is'.
The path of the righteous man leads toward FreeBSD.

Wow, that's some fabulous deck-chair rearrangement you've got there.

How's the merging of Darwin features back into FreeBSD these days, bro?

[Rick Moen]

Post by Teh Entar-Nick

Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Google is our Symbolics.

'was', not 'is'.
The path of the righteous man leads toward FreeBSD.

Wow, that's some fabulous deck-chair rearrangement you've got there.
How's the merging of Darwin features back into FreeBSD these days, bro?

I'm guessing Jim still hasn't figured out reply-sender vs. reply-all?

I do worry about the future of our FreeBSD brethren in that their breadth
of hardware support has never been great and has gotten worse in the
last decade. Hardware deployments even on server platforms have turned
problematic, e.g., Textdrive was driven to migrate off FreeBSD (in that
case to to OpenSolaris) around the time they were emborged by Joyent.

[Rick Moen]

Post by Rick Moen
I'm guessing Jim still hasn't figured out reply-sender vs.
reply-all?

no, the reply-all was intentional.

I didn't receive your antecedent post, only Nick's boggled reference to
it.

As for OpenSolaris: how's that working out for ya?

I have no connection to either Joyent or to Textdrive, except that I
know the founder of Textdrive well.

Seems to me that Textdrive was driven to migrate off BSD for reasons
unrelated to hardware support.

That is absolutely not what Jason Hoffman, the founder says. But maybe
beer makes him hallucinate.

As for your "around the time they were embargoed by Joyent"....

I note that you have nothing contrary to what I said, but want to argue
anyway. You do that often, I've noticed. I'm inclined to minimise my
time investment, as with trolls generally.

I do find it odd that the linux-on-thedesktop crowd is still tilting
at windmills.

Mine works great. Sorry to hear about $SOMEONE_ELSE problem.

[Rick Moen]

Exactly my point. Thank you.

I'm glad my declining to get suckered by moronic OS advocacy trolling
meets your needs.

[Jason White]

Post by Teh Entar-Nick
When the rights-abridging consumer mainstream is Android on Linux, all
that's left are GNU Elitists.

Agreed.

Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Google is our Symbolics.

If you mean that it's shifting people away from open development and toward
proprietary development, as Symbolics apparently did in the Lisp community,
then it's a plausible position to hold, but at best it's a hypothesis in need
of testing.

I suspect that most of the people who are writing proprietary Android
applications, in its absence, would be doing the same work under a different
operating system rather than writing free software in the FSF sense.

I've read claims (again plausible) that OS X has significantly attracted users
and developers away from GNU/Linux. Some might argue that the wave of publicly
expressed dissatisfaction, first in response to KDE 4 and later in response to
GNOME 3, would send users fleeing toward other operating systems. This, too,
is entirely plausible, although it should be noted that other operating
systems (including Microsoft's, according to what I've read) are reshaping
their GUIs at the moment to accommodate the rise of mobile devices. GNOME and
KDE are not alone (and there are always XFCE, LXCE etc., available to the
dissatisfied).

As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you think what
we today call phones and tablets, and the operating systems running on them,
will ultimately displace desktop machines as traditionally understood. We
could be heading into an era of Linux in the server room, Linux (Android,
Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, KDE Plasma or whatever) in the end-user-facing
devices, and nothing in between as the PC legacy slowly disappears. There
would
be both new challenges and opportunities for software freedom in that
environment.

[David Edmondson]

Post by Jason White
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating systems
running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood. We could be heading into an era of Linux in
the server room, Linux (Android, Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, KDE Plasma
or whatever) in the end-user-facing devices, and nothing in between as
the PC legacy slowly disappears. There would be both new challenges
and opportunities for software freedom in that environment.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of
wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it
was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the
season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of
despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were
all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way."

Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

[Greg KH]

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

WTF? What "freedoms" was Linux intended to "allow"? And who,
specifically, "intended" them?

Linux will "win completely", and by doing so we have done something that
no one else has ever done, in a way of doing it that has never been done
before, and in a way that only a very few could have guessed would be
possible[1].

greg k-h

[1] I have met those few who did guess this, but were they just lucky?

[David Edmondson]

Post by Greg KH
Linux will "win completely", and by doing so we have done something that
no one else has ever done, in a way of doing it that has never been done
before, and in a way that only a very few could have guessed would be
possible[1].

Agreed. I certainly would not have anticipated the speed and extent of
its' success. It is the best of times.

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

WTF? What "freedoms" was Linux intended to "allow"? And who,
specifically, "intended" them?

Maybe I went overboard.

Linus chose a specific license, presumably with specific intent. That
license includes various clauses intended to promote particular
behaviour and provide certain guarantees. Doesn't that license provide
various freedoms?

As for the worst of times, Jason described a possible scenario:

As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating
systems running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood.

Those devices (phones and tablets) are often built in a way that is
restrictive - closed components, hidden software, etc.

[Greg KH]

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Greg KH
Linux will "win completely", and by doing so we have done something that
no one else has ever done, in a way of doing it that has never been done
before, and in a way that only a very few could have guessed would be
possible[1].

Agreed. I certainly would not have anticipated the speed and extent of
its' success. It is the best of times.

"speed"? 20 years isn't exactly fast :)

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

WTF? What "freedoms" was Linux intended to "allow"? And who,
specifically, "intended" them?

Maybe I went overboard.
Linus chose a specific license, presumably with specific intent.

And what was that intent?

Post by David Edmondson
That license includes various clauses intended to promote particular
behaviour and provide certain guarantees. Doesn't that license provide
various freedoms?

And how has that license prevented any of those "freedoms"?

What has changed since the creation of the kernel that has prevented any
of these "freedoms"?

Remember, the FSF was the one that _approved_ Tivo's usage of signed
bootloaders to lock down the kernel to a specific version in the
machine as a valid interpretation of GPLv2. So you can't complain about
that, as you will be arguing against the creator of the license.

Post by David Edmondson
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating
systems running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood.
Those devices (phones and tablets) are often built in a way that is
restrictive - closed components, hidden software, etc.

And what does that have to do with Linux?

I understand some people's annoyance at this type of thing, but Linux
does not impose "usage restrictions" on devices. To do so would be a
violation of another type of "freedom", don't you agree?

greg k-h

[David Edmondson]

Sorry for the long delay, I was on holiday.

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Greg KH
Linux will "win completely", and by doing so we have done something that
no one else has ever done, in a way of doing it that has never been done
before, and in a way that only a very few could have guessed would be
possible[1].

Agreed. I certainly would not have anticipated the speed and extent of
its' success. It is the best of times.

"speed"? 20 years isn't exactly fast :)

It seems like only yesterday that I booted the Linux kernel from a
floppy disk (no hard disk support), was dumped at a shell prompt (no
login) and fired up KA9Q to connect to a remote system using an external
modem (no kernel TCP/IP stack).

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson
Linus chose a specific license, presumably with specific intent.

And what was that intent?

I cannot know with any certainty, and am not in as good a position as
yourself to know with any confidence, but[1] I hope that it was with the
intention that the software be shared in accordance with both the terms
and spirit of the license.

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson
That license includes various clauses intended to promote particular
behaviour and provide certain guarantees. Doesn't that license provide
various freedoms?

And how has that license prevented any of those "freedoms"?

It has not.

Post by Greg KH
What has changed since the creation of the kernel that has prevented any
of these "freedoms"?

The careful creation of software, software licenses and businesses
around the kernel that don't share the same terms or spirit.

Post by Greg KH
Remember, the FSF was the one that _approved_ Tivo's usage of signed
bootloaders to lock down the kernel to a specific version in the
machine as a valid interpretation of GPLv2. So you can't complain about
that, as you will be arguing against the creator of the license.

That's allowed, right? :-)

Post by Greg KH

Post by David Edmondson
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating
systems running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood.
Those devices (phones and tablets) are often built in a way that is
restrictive - closed components, hidden software, etc.

And what does that have to do with Linux?

The devices are described as "Linux devices", but include many
components which do not share the same license or source code
philosophy.

Post by Greg KH
I understand some people's annoyance at this type of thing, but Linux
does not impose "usage restrictions" on devices. To do so would be a
violation of another type of "freedom", don't you agree?

Of course - (almost?) any freedom that might be granted can be phrased
as a restriction on some other freedom.

From reading your comments I realise that I used (and have generally
been using) the term "Linux" in a sloppy way - to mean something more
that the kernel. It's a mistake to do so in such discussions.

Footnotes:
[1] "I have no firm basis on which to make a statement, but will do so
anyway."

[Jason White]

Post by Jason White
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating
systems running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood.
Those devices (phones and tablets) are often built in a way that is
restrictive - closed components, hidden software, etc.

True, but many of the micro-computers of the 80s weren't particularly open
either. Then the IBM PC standard became dominant, there were many PC clones
from various manufacturers, and it became a commodity item governed
increasingly by standards.

This isn't exactly parallel to the kinds of closed hardware we're discussing
today, of course. My question then is whether there are forces that will tend
toward greater openness over time. I think the FSF initiative to replace the
closed components of Android with free alternatives is exactly the necessary
move for them to be making in the present environment, whether or not the
project succeeds.

[Tilghman Lesher]

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

That Linux will "win completely" is actually a bad thing, historically
speaking. In any market where a single product has "won", stagnation
was the result. It's the fight for dominance which keeps us moving
forward, and thus, I hope for a future where there are always at least
3 options, continually fighting for dominance, sometimes one pulling
forward, but with no one product achieving the dominance for which it
fights. It's a process, not a destination.

-Tilghman

[Greg KH]

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

That Linux will "win completely" is actually a bad thing, historically
speaking. In any market where a single product has "won", stagnation
was the result. It's the fight for dominance which keeps us moving
forward, and thus, I hope for a future where there are always at least
3 options, continually fighting for dominance, sometimes one pulling
forward, but with no one product achieving the dominance for which it
fights. It's a process, not a destination.

You used the word "historically" correctly here.

Remember, Linux has done something that has never been done before, so
why would history be any indication that this is going to cause
"stagnation"?

Remember, there isn't just "one" Linux, unlike there has been in the
past with single-systems. There are thousands of Linux versions out
there, for hundreds of thousands of different types of systems, being
used in a myriad of different ways.

It is being created by 3,000 different developers, from over 450
different companies every year, pulling it in ways that are anything but
common. There is a constant churn and change happening, never stopping.

And this rate of change keeps increasing, stagnation is no where to be
seen at all.

To quote an IBM executive, "Are you done with Linux yet?" And my
response, finally, after 10 years of hearing this, "We will be when you
stop making new hardware."

As long as the world keeps changing, Linux should be changing to keep up
with it. If it doesn't, then it will die, but that's a different story.

greg k-h

[Tilghman Lesher]

Post by Greg KH

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

That Linux will "win completely" is actually a bad thing, historically
speaking. In any market where a single product has "won", stagnation
was the result. It's the fight for dominance which keeps us moving
forward, and thus, I hope for a future where there are always at least
3 options, continually fighting for dominance, sometimes one pulling
forward, but with no one product achieving the dominance for which it
fights. It's a process, not a destination.

You used the word "historically" correctly here.
Remember, Linux has done something that has never been done before, so
why would history be any indication that this is going to cause
"stagnation"?

Remember the dot-com boom and bust, where everybody insisted that they
had a new way of doing business, and the old rules didn't apply?
You're telling me the old rules don't apply to Linux.

Post by Greg KH
Remember, there isn't just "one" Linux, unlike there has been in the
past with single-systems. There are thousands of Linux versions out
there, for hundreds of thousands of different types of systems, being
used in a myriad of different ways.

There are thousands of Windows versions out there, too, just as there
are thousands of MacOS (probably hundreds, if you only count Mac OS X)
versions, but we generally count each of those as being singleton
competitors. Yes, the versatility of Linux means that if you live on
the bleeding edge, there are thousands of different kernels in use at
any one time, but most of us who aren't kernel developers tend not to
run anything other than what is packaged. We have more important
things to do than rice up our kernels like some sort of Gentoo user.

Post by Greg KH
It is being created by 3,000 different developers, from over 450
different companies every year, pulling it in ways that are anything but
common. There is a constant churn and change happening, never stopping.
And this rate of change keeps increasing, stagnation is no where to be
seen at all.

Correct, because Linux hasn't won, yet. It has not achieved an
operating system monopoly, yet. Competition thrives, so innovation
thrives.

Post by Greg KH
To quote an IBM executive, "Are you done with Linux yet?" And my
response, finally, after 10 years of hearing this, "We will be when you
stop making new hardware."

Similarly, I hope this never happens, because hardware innovation
would be dead, and we'd all be poorer for it.

Post by Greg KH
As long as the world keeps changing, Linux should be changing to keep up
with it. If it doesn't, then it will die, but that's a different story.

I don't think that you're even advocating a position where Linux has
to win the operating system market, beating out every competitor and
obtaining what is essentially a monopoly. If we were ever to get
there, however, I'm not certain if you see that as wise or if you're
simply indifferent to the possibility. Care to take a more definitive
position?

-Tilghman

[Greg KH]

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

That Linux will "win completely" is actually a bad thing, historically
speaking. In any market where a single product has "won", stagnation
was the result. It's the fight for dominance which keeps us moving
forward, and thus, I hope for a future where there are always at least
3 options, continually fighting for dominance, sometimes one pulling
forward, but with no one product achieving the dominance for which it
fights. It's a process, not a destination.

You used the word "historically" correctly here.
Remember, Linux has done something that has never been done before, so
why would history be any indication that this is going to cause
"stagnation"?

Remember the dot-com boom and bust, where everybody insisted that they
had a new way of doing business, and the old rules didn't apply?
You're telling me the old rules don't apply to Linux.

I'm not talking about "business rules", I'm talking about software
engineering rules, and the development of ecosystems and huge systems.
Linux has broken all of those "rules" in the past, so much so that no
one teaches them anymore (well, good schools don't, plenty of old ones
still do...)

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
Remember, there isn't just "one" Linux, unlike there has been in the
past with single-systems. There are thousands of Linux versions out
there, for hundreds of thousands of different types of systems, being
used in a myriad of different ways.

There are thousands of Windows versions out there, too

No there isn't. There are only a handful, all running on one processor.

Don't count the windows embedded stuff, that's a totally different
operating system.

If you have to write new userspace code for the operating system
version, that's a new operating system.

Post by Tilghman Lesher
, just as there are thousands of MacOS (probably hundreds, if you only
count Mac OS X) versions,

There are not thousands of OSX versions either.

Post by Tilghman Lesher
but we generally count each of those as
being singleton
competitors. Yes, the versatility of Linux means that if you live on
the bleeding edge, there are thousands of different kernels in use at
any one time, but most of us who aren't kernel developers tend not to
run anything other than what is packaged.

The Linux system you use in your phone is very different from the
version you interact with when you use Google and it's different from
the version you use on your desktop and it's different from the version
you use when riding in an airplane (both from the seat-back
entertainment system and the air-traffic control system that guided you
in safely) and it's different from the version used by the airline to
bill your credit card, and so on...

Yes, they all share a common kernel at one point in history, but all are
different at the same time. They all require different things, making
the overall ecosystem quite varied.

Post by Tilghman Lesher
We have more important things to do than rice up our kernels like some
sort of Gentoo user.

I don't think you really understand who uses Gentoo these days, do
you? NASDAQ and ChromeOS are just two such usages, both succeeding
quite well, don't you think?

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
It is being created by 3,000 different developers, from over 450
different companies every year, pulling it in ways that are anything but
common. There is a constant churn and change happening, never stopping.
And this rate of change keeps increasing, stagnation is no where to be
seen at all.

Correct, because Linux hasn't won, yet. It has not achieved an
operating system monopoly, yet. Competition thrives, so innovation
thrives.

So you are saying that the only reason Linux is being developed so much
is because it is competing with something else? What exactly is it
competing with that is causing this change? [1]

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
To quote an IBM executive, "Are you done with Linux yet?" And my
response, finally, after 10 years of hearing this, "We will be when you
stop making new hardware."

Similarly, I hope this never happens, because hardware innovation
would be dead, and we'd all be poorer for it.

I agree, and I don't think it ever will happen. Hence, Linux needs to
keep changing to keep up with new hardware.

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
As long as the world keeps changing, Linux should be changing to keep up
with it. If it doesn't, then it will die, but that's a different story.

I don't think that you're even advocating a position where Linux has
to win the operating system market, beating out every competitor and
obtaining what is essentially a monopoly. If we were ever to get
there, however, I'm not certain if you see that as wise or if you're
simply indifferent to the possibility. Care to take a more definitive
position?

I think it is wise in that Linux really is better than anything else
right now. But also sad, I like those other operating systems, and it's
sad to see them die, but I fail to see anything else succeeding these
days, in anything other than "niche" markets.

greg k-h

[1] Linux is really competing with Linux these days, not other operating
system kernels, we are so far ahead of everyone else its scary, and
troubling in that we are now making it up as we go along, and that's
way harder than trying to catch something else.

[Don Marti]

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
Remember, there isn't just "one" Linux, unlike there has been in the
past with single-systems. There are thousands of Linux versions out
there, for hundreds of thousands of different types of systems, being
used in a myriad of different ways.

There are thousands of Windows versions out there, too, just as there
are thousands of MacOS (probably hundreds, if you only count Mac OS X)
versions, but we generally count each of those as being singleton
competitors. Yes, the versatility of Linux means that if you live on
the bleeding edge, there are thousands of different kernels in use at
any one time, but most of us who aren't kernel developers tend not to
run anything other than what is packaged. We have more important
things to do than rice up our kernels like some sort of Gentoo user.

Every special snowflake Linux product, whether it's
a phone in your pocket or a huge rack-mounted beast
in a data center somewhere, has some kind of special
snowflake kernel in it.

Each one of those kernels could be taken from idea on
the white board to working product in the customer's
hands without negotiating a license, but modifying the
kernel isn't so much a hobbyist thing--maintenance
and customization effort and skill is a complement
to the free kernel. And you know what they say about
complementary goods.

Something that makes Linux different from the other
common OSs is that it has high-value developers and
code as a free good, instead of disposable developers
and code as an asset. This means that there's no
single point of control to talk to about using Linux,
and it also means that more of the value of the system
ends up in the hands of live, active developers.

[Rik van Riel]

Post by Tilghman Lesher

Post by Greg KH
It is being created by 3,000 different developers, from over 450
different companies every year, pulling it in ways that are anything but
common. There is a constant churn and change happening, never stopping.
And this rate of change keeps increasing, stagnation is no where to be
seen at all.

Correct, because Linux hasn't won, yet. It has not achieved an
operating system monopoly, yet. Competition thrives, so innovation
thrives.

There is competition inside Linux. At the same time, the license,
together with practicalities of development, ensure that the best
code makes it back into the upstream kernel.org source tree.

Even if Linux ended up becoming totally dominant, competition
inside Linux would continue.

[Rick Moen]

Post by David Edmondson
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

unsubscribe comp.os.*.advocacy.legalistic-wankery

[Shlomi Fish]

Hello David and all,

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:27:22 +0100

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Jason White
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating systems
running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood. We could be heading into an era of Linux in
the server room, Linux (Android, Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, KDE Plasma
or whatever) in the end-user-facing devices, and nothing in between as
the PC legacy slowly disappears. There would be both new challenges
and opportunities for software freedom in that environment.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of
wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it
was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the
season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of
despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were
all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way."
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

In addition to what other people said, I'd like to note that there is a problem
with predicting such things with absolute certainty: they don't always come
true. Some predictions I recall that didn't come true:

1. In the turn of the 1990s the astrological section of one of the Israeli
newspapers, said that by the year 2000 parts of North America and Scandinavia
will disappear. It didn't happen.

2. Before the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War , an Israeli military
politics expert told the public that the Iraqis will certainly not fire
missiles at Israel. After the war (when many missiles were fired onto Israel),
the other experts boycotted him, not because he made a false prediction (which
is human), but because he proclaimed it would be absolutely certain that it will
happen.

3. Here are some predictions from Earth Day 1970 that didn't materialise:

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/earth-day-predictions-of-1970-the-reason-you-should-not-believe-earth-day-predictions-of-2009

4. In http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html , it is mentioned that:

««
In the early 90s everyone thought IBM was completely over: mainframes were
history! Back then, Robert X. Cringely predicted that the era of the mainframe
would end on January 1, 2000 when all the applications written in COBOL would
seize up, and rather than fix those applications, for which, allegedly, the
source code had long since been lost, everybody would rewrite those
applications for client-server platforms.
»»

This prediction didn't come true either.

5. I recall that someone on an Israeli
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software once claimed that
several years from then (I think it was 5 years), proprietary software will
become extinct, and I recall it was said over 5 years ago.

----------------

So be careful when making such predictions and presenting them as a
certain-to-happen fact, because you may be proven wrong. As someone noted
on a chat I had on IRC, people predicted that certain technologies will kill
the PC several times before, and it didn't happen.

In one essay that an Israeli open source enthusiast wrote he made the claim
that there were only 3 or 4 *profitable* companies who developed and sold
non-open-source software. In one comment to the essay on
http://www.whatsup.org.il/ , one commentator gave a list of ten profitable
vendors of non-open-source software, and there were likely many more at the
time and still are.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

[Raistlin Majere]

You know, I've had a tablet for a while now, as well as a smart phone,
both are wonderful, but when I have to type anything significant, I
still reach for my laptop. My laptop has been running Linux for 17 years
now, but most non tech people I know have tablets, phones and laptops
with Android or Apple on the first two and Windows 7 on the laptop. If
you said the traditional Desktop will disappear, I have no problem with
that statement, but I don't think the laptop is on it's way out. If you
said Windows is on it's way out, I would say that Microsoft is one more
mistake away from that being true as well.

R.M.

Post by Shlomi Fish
Hello David and all,
On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:27:22 +0100

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Jason White
As to predicting the long term, I suppose it depends on whether you
think what we today call phones and tablets, and the operating systems
running on them, will ultimately displace desktop machines as
traditionally understood. We could be heading into an era of Linux in
the server room, Linux (Android, Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, KDE Plasma
or whatever) in the end-user-facing devices, and nothing in between as
the PC legacy slowly disappears. There would be both new challenges
and opportunities for software freedom in that environment.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of
wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it
was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the
season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of
despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were
all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way."
Linux will win completely and be everywhere, but we will have none of
the freedoms that it was intended to allow.

In addition to what other people said, I'd like to note that there is a problem
with predicting such things with absolute certainty: they don't always come
1. In the turn of the 1990s the astrological section of one of the Israeli
newspapers, said that by the year 2000 parts of North America and Scandinavia
will disappear. It didn't happen.
2. Before the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War , an Israeli military
politics expert told the public that the Iraqis will certainly not fire
missiles at Israel. After the war (when many missiles were fired onto Israel),
the other experts boycotted him, not because he made a false prediction (which
is human), but because he proclaimed it would be absolutely certain that it will
happen.
http://www.ihatethemedia.com/earth-day-predictions-of-1970-the-reason-you-should-not-believe-earth-day-predictions-of-2009
««
In the early 90s everyone thought IBM was completely over: mainframes were
history! Back then, Robert X. Cringely predicted that the era of the mainframe
would end on January 1, 2000 when all the applications written in COBOL would
seize up, and rather than fix those applications, for which, allegedly, the
source code had long since been lost, everybody would rewrite those
applications for client-server platforms.
»»
This prediction didn't come true either.
5. I recall that someone on an Israeli
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software once claimed that
several years from then (I think it was 5 years), proprietary software will
become extinct, and I recall it was said over 5 years ago.
----------------
So be careful when making such predictions and presenting them as a
certain-to-happen fact, because you may be proven wrong. As someone noted
on a chat I had on IRC, people predicted that certain technologies will kill
the PC several times before, and it didn't happen.
In one essay that an Israeli open source enthusiast wrote he made the claim
that there were only 3 or 4 *profitable* companies who developed and sold
non-open-source software. In one comment to the essay on
http://www.whatsup.org.il/ , one commentator gave a list of ten profitable
vendors of non-open-source software, and there were likely many more at the
time and still are.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish

[Eugen Leitl]

Post by Raistlin Majere
You know, I've had a tablet for a while now, as well as a smart phone,
both are wonderful, but when I have to type anything significant, I
still reach for my laptop. My laptop has been running Linux for 17 years

Lenovo X60 in good shape are really cheap lately, and run Debian/xfce
like a champ. Add a 8-cell LiIon (up to 5 h runtime, effectivelly)
and an SSD, and 2 GBytes RAM go a long way.

Post by Raistlin Majere
now, but most non tech people I know have tablets, phones and laptops
with Android or Apple on the first two and Windows 7 on the laptop. If
you said the traditional Desktop will disappear, I have no problem with
that statement, but I don't think the laptop is on it's way out. If you
said Windows is on it's way out, I would say that Microsoft is one more
mistake away from that being true as well.

[Karsten M. Self]

Post by David Edmondson

Post by Don Marti
When the list had higher traffic, I would add rules
every so often in an attempt to bring traffic down,
but I haven't had to do that in a while. (Is everyone
blogging instead?)

There are no linux elitists left. Or everyone is a linux elitist. Or
something.

We have met the elitist and he is us.


Peace.