Discussion:
No results found for "social justice growth hacking".
(too old to reply)
Don Marti
2015-02-04 17:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Is the ability to assimilate developers from
underrepresented demographic groups going to be the
main success factor in building network effects for
future IT platforms?

GNU, then Linux, got huge because of temporary
exclusion by shortsighted proprietary OS vendors,
which basically gave "our side" a huge crowd of
haha-no-compiler-for-you Solaris victims, then cheap
web hosting customers, and so on until Linux won
(most categories).

That was so 1990s. Today, well, the surviving
vendors have price discrimination figured out.
http://www.microsoft.com/refurbishedpcs/RRPFAQ.aspx
No more easy-to-find excluded users.

And the surviving developer platforms? It's not
"cough up the money for the compiler", it's more like
"would you like sushi or rosemary beef cubes at your
free workshop?" Every platform is chasing the same,
relatively small group of developers. This is kind
of like how the dumbass Unix vendors fought over
the same long-suffering Unix customers, while Linux
quietly built up strength among the rest of the world.

So where is the next generation coming from? What's
going to be the "holy shit, all those new people are
running THAT?" platform?

(also, no results found for "hyperlocal data-driven
normcore", which is the fashion trend where you crawl
the web for photos tagged near you and use Amazon
Mechanical Turk or a similar service to idenfify the
clothing worn.)
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Marti Don
2015-02-04 22:13:49 UTC
Permalink
The first and last paragraph and the title are fun too but make the middle
less compelling to a wider audience IMHO.
Without the beginning and the end it's just an updated
version of "isn't it awesome to be Digital Equipment
Corporation in the early 1980s! All the k3wl hax0rz
are writing for our platform..."
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-02-07 21:40:29 UTC
Permalink
So where is the next generation coming from? What's going to be the
"holy shit, all those new people are running THAT?" platform?
I don't know, but I can tell you that the competition right now seems to
be JavaScript in various forms.

People may be writing fancy new back-end server stacks on dragonfly bsd
docker images using haskell or clojure or whatever, but by and large all
of that mess is a delivery mechanism for large blobs of minified
proprietary JavaScript.

And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.

Tech-savvy people I trust are leaving IRC for whatever Google
Chat-Hangout thing is hip these days, and it's reminding me of that
period in the early 1990s when I clung to local BBSes because I found
the Internet so vast and impersonal. These days I find IRC networks
run by friends and co-conspirators far less corporate and spooky than
anything out there. Boy was Jabber ever a failure!

So I think we need another moon-shot GNU project, but reaching further.

We need APIs that from the start fit the model of what people are
developing today. I can't tell you how frustrating it is that PyGame
took decades before "Just multiply your movement by dt" became the norm.
Everyone did all kinds of horrible pointless framerate hacks! We need
to copy the best interfaces, and support The Clean Architecture in
nearly everything (just as Unix pipes did!).

We also need better communication channels and tools. We need something
that can take over from the snapchats and facebooks and such, but treat
the user with respect. There needs to be privacy as a default, and the
ability to host the streams yourself.

But we also need better protection from harassment. Right now the only
way we've worked out how to solve this is centralised moderation,
Metafilter-style. We need to work out how to make a system where if a
socially vulnerable under-represented youth starts thinking maybe it
would be worthwhile to develop Free Software, that participation is easy
without stepping in flame wars or suffering under hails of sadistic
abuse from privileged jerks.

The closest system I can come up with is the Sugar project from
SugarLabs (who took over the software side from the OLPC project when
the latter went off into "Green Android tablet with Proprietary Branded
Content" tail-spins). The code was ahead of its time a decade ago, and
now is a little passé but still very nice. Some inspiration to draw
from, there, but we need to be more radical.
Don Marti
2015-02-11 20:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So where is the next generation coming from? What's going to be the
"holy shit, all those new people are running THAT?" platform?
I don't know, but I can tell you that the competition right now seems to
be JavaScript in various forms.
People may be writing fancy new back-end server stacks on dragonfly bsd
docker images using haskell or clojure or whatever, but by and large all
of that mess is a delivery mechanism for large blobs of minified
proprietary JavaScript.
Meteor looks promising...
https://www.meteor.com/about
...yes, it's a big hairy JavaScript thing, and the
sites it produces aren't exactly crawlable...
http://www.manuel-schoebel.com/blog/meteor-and-seo
...but it's Free (MIT licensed).
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
Tech-savvy people I trust are leaving IRC for whatever Google
Chat-Hangout thing is hip these days, and it's reminding me of that
period in the early 1990s when I clung to local BBSes because I found
the Internet so vast and impersonal. These days I find IRC networks
run by friends and co-conspirators far less corporate and spooky than
anything out there. Boy was Jabber ever a failure!
(Where do people go to shoot the shit on the Internet
any more? Things have gotten silent. Did too many
people split up and go to Google Plus, or Myspace,
or Twitter, or whatever, while enough others are
opposed on principle to any given proprietary network
that no actual conversation about random stuff can
get started? We need some kind of off-topic list,
like, you know, what was that one list?)
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So I think we need another moon-shot GNU project, but reaching further.
We need APIs that from the start fit the model of what people are
developing today. I can't tell you how frustrating it is that PyGame
took decades before "Just multiply your movement by dt" became the norm.
Everyone did all kinds of horrible pointless framerate hacks! We need
to copy the best interfaces, and support The Clean Architecture in
nearly everything (just as Unix pipes did!).
I'm down for a super-clean, non-annoying platform for
all things.

The catch is that there are n different platforms
all doing some things right, and all fighting over
the same n(1+ε) "usual suspects" developers.

That's where SJGH comes in -- get the excluded masses
on board, and even a non-clean toolkit can win. (Look
at PHP vs. "real" languages. Elitists complain about
PHP, but it did do some of the kind of including the
excluded that has to happen on a larger scale.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We also need better communication channels and tools. We need something
that can take over from the snapchats and facebooks and such, but treat
the user with respect. There needs to be privacy as a default, and the
ability to host the streams yourself.
Or on a $5/mo VPS, or the "free developer evaluation"
PaaS that you can get some company to give you.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
But we also need better protection from harassment. Right now the only
way we've worked out how to solve this is centralised moderation,
Metafilter-style. We need to work out how to make a system where if a
socially vulnerable under-represented youth starts thinking maybe it
would be worthwhile to develop Free Software, that participation is easy
without stepping in flame wars or suffering under hails of sadistic
abuse from privileged jerks.
How about a web of trust? Under-represented youth
connects to one person f2f, then can participate on a
list that includes that person's trusted contacts out
to a certain degree?

Twitter and Facebook have harassment problems too.
The one advantage that the free software side has
is that we can require more on the client side.
Not too much, because of what's available to the
under-represented youth, but more than a service
run by a company whose stock moves based on monthly
average users.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
The closest system I can come up with is the Sugar project from
SugarLabs (who took over the software side from the OLPC project when
the latter went off into "Green Android tablet with Proprietary Branded
Content" tail-spins). The code was ahead of its time a decade ago, and
now is a little passé but still very nice. Some inspiration to draw
from, there, but we need to be more radical.
Yes, or Non-Free "platform evangelists" will get to the
excluded potential contributors before our side does.
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
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linux-***@zgp.org
http://zgp.
Bob Bernstein
2015-02-12 04:53:41 UTC
Permalink
We need some kind of off-topic list, like, you know, what was that
one list?
IT'S ALIVE!
--
Bob Bernstein

"No matter how big the problem is, you can always run away from it."

Dom Irrera
Rick Moen
2015-02-12 06:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bernstein
We need some kind of off-topic list, like, you know, what was that
one list?
IT'S ALIVE!
1. You're not entitled to that opinion.

2. Not if Nick can help it.
--
Cheers, "Two things programmers tend to underestimate:
Rick Moen 1. How long things take.
***@linuxmafia.com 2. How long our code will be around.
McQ! (4x80) 3. How many things we underestimate." @jasongorman
Shlomi Fish
2015-02-12 09:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rick,

I'm glad you are finally back online and thanks for restoring your sites at
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/ and http://linuxmafia.com/ . There is a lot of
good stuff there. ♥!

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:32:23 -0800
[SNIPPPED]
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
http://is.gd/KNvczZ - The FSF Announces New Versions of the GPL

Chuck Norris can read Perl code that was RSA encrypted.
— http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
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http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/li
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 07:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Marti
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So where is the next generation coming from? What's going to be the
"holy shit, all those new people are running THAT?" platform?
I don't know, but I can tell you that the competition right now seems to
be JavaScript in various forms.
People may be writing fancy new back-end server stacks on dragonfly bsd
docker images using haskell or clojure or whatever, but by and large all
of that mess is a delivery mechanism for large blobs of minified
proprietary JavaScript.
Meteor looks promising...
https://www.meteor.com/about
...yes, it's a big hairy JavaScript thing, and the
sites it produces aren't exactly crawlable...
http://www.manuel-schoebel.com/blog/meteor-and-seo
...but it's Free (MIT licensed).
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
Tech-savvy people I trust are leaving IRC for whatever Google
Chat-Hangout thing is hip these days, and it's reminding me of that
period in the early 1990s when I clung to local BBSes because I found
the Internet so vast and impersonal. These days I find IRC networks
run by friends and co-conspirators far less corporate and spooky than
anything out there. Boy was Jabber ever a failure!
(Where do people go to shoot the shit on the Internet
any more? Things have gotten silent. Did too many
people split up and go to Google Plus, or Myspace,
or Twitter, or whatever, while enough others are
opposed on principle to any given proprietary network
that no actual conversation about random stuff can
get started? We need some kind of off-topic list,
like, you know, what was that one list?)
Hangout

on NYLXS

It is more than a generational thing being lost here, though. I feel
that I spent 20 years fighting the communications and intellectual
"property' war knowing that the next generation would be shaped by that
effort, and that I lost in a collosal way..

These kids are so stupid that they actually THINK that it is ok for
google to track their every waking move and communication and my school
thinks gmail is more secure mail than panix or my own mail server.

The core freedom in digital communications is the ability to SERVER...
to server your own mail... to server your own web services ...to service
your own communication channels, and this has been ripped out of their
hands.

I imagined that everyone would have their own webserver and mail server
and instead we have facebook and gmail. Somewhere there has been a
terrible wrong turn and it is our fault. This has not been articulated
clarly enough,

it is 2015 and it is still a nerdy thing to run your own web server...

God help us when a real AI is ready to move in on us... we have no
chance.



Ruben
Post by Don Marti
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So I think we need another moon-shot GNU project, but reaching further.
We need APIs that from the start fit the model of what people are
developing today. I can't tell you how frustrating it is that PyGame
took decades before "Just multiply your movement by dt" became the norm.
Everyone did all kinds of horrible pointless framerate hacks! We need
to copy the best interfaces, and support The Clean Architecture in
nearly everything (just as Unix pipes did!).
I'm down for a super-clean, non-annoying platform for
all things.
The catch is that there are n different platforms
all doing some things right, and all fighting over
the same n(1+ε) "usual suspects" developers.
That's where SJGH comes in -- get the excluded masses
on board, and even a non-clean toolkit can win. (Look
at PHP vs. "real" languages. Elitists complain about
PHP, but it did do some of the kind of including the
excluded that has to happen on a larger scale.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We also need better communication channels and tools. We need something
that can take over from the snapchats and facebooks and such, but treat
the user with respect. There needs to be privacy as a default, and the
ability to host the streams yourself.
Or on a $5/mo VPS, or the "free developer evaluation"
PaaS that you can get some company to give you.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
But we also need better protection from harassment. Right now the only
way we've worked out how to solve this is centralised moderation,
Metafilter-style. We need to work out how to make a system where if a
socially vulnerable under-represented youth starts thinking maybe it
would be worthwhile to develop Free Software, that participation is easy
without stepping in flame wars or suffering under hails of sadistic
abuse from privileged jerks.
How about a web of trust? Under-represented youth
connects to one person f2f, then can participate on a
list that includes that person's trusted contacts out
to a certain degree?
Twitter and Facebook have harassment problems too.
The one advantage that the free software side has
is that we can require more on the client side.
Not too much, because of what's available to the
under-represented youth, but more than a service
run by a company whose stock moves based on monthly
average users.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
The closest system I can come up with is the Sugar project from
SugarLabs (who took over the software side from the OLPC project when
the latter went off into "Green Android tablet with Proprietary Branded
Content" tail-spins). The code was ahead of its time a decade ago, and
now is a little passé but still very nice. Some inspiration to draw
from, there, but we need to be more radical.
Yes, or Non-Free "platform evangelists" will get to the
excluded potential contributors before our side does.
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
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Rick Moen
2015-02-12 07:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Hangout
on NYLXS
1. Majordomo in 2015: How quaint. And also proprietary. You _were_ aware
of that, right? One of several reasons why I and practically everyone else
migrated from Majordomo to Mailman in 1999 was that the replacement was
open source.

Fortunately, it's dead-simple to migrate the membership rosters and
cumulstive mboxes to GNU Mailman. You might want to catch up with the
'90s and do that. Just a thought.

2. Your welcome message for the mailing list is long and windy. You can
and should cut it. A great deal.

3. I note this paragraph in the welcome message, which is cleverly timeless
thanks to the omission of a year. (Well done!)

Next install feast is in Brooklyn, in two weeks on a Sunday, November
11th, 3PM to 10PM, at 1600 East 17th street.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We take pride in using only a minimal amount of moderation.
My naive faith in progress is at risk again: Please save me from the
extremely strong suspicion that you are one of those who talk about
'moderation' of mailing lists that are in fact, unmoderated and merely
have a listadmin who chides (and if necessary sanctions) people after
the fact for having misbehaved.

Or, if you cannot save me from that sad conclusion, fix the goddamned
word-usage error, Ruben. It's misleading to talk about 'moderation' of
a mailing list that isn't moderated.

I doubt you are maniacal enough to deliberately have every single
posting held for approval, which is what 'moderated mailing list' means.

You want people to have faith in your listadmin regime? Start by not
calling yourself a moderator when you most likely aren't one. It makes
you look either like a control-freak or someone who doesn't really know
what he's doing.
--
Cheers, "I know you believe you understood what you think I said,
Rick Moen but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not
***@linuxmafia.com what I meant." -- S.I. Hayakawa
McQ! (4x80)
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 07:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
My naive faith in progress is at risk again: Please save me from the
extremely strong suspicion that you are one of those who talk about
'moderation' of mailing lists that are in fact, unmoderated and merely
have a listadmin who chides (and if necessary sanctions) people after
the fact for having misbehaved.
you have already looked at it more than I have BUT, I barely moderate at
all. I think ONCE Adam Kozmin and Steve nearly went to fisticuffs and I
put them both out for about 10 days. They barely noticed and when each
thought they had the final word, I reinstated them. I think the
comments about moderation where because of my frustrations with the
NYLUG mailing list.....
BUT...

The only thing I promised you about hangout is that we are very good at
being off topic.

One word about majordomo, it is all in perl so I think I've reviewed
the code a bit but that is not a problem. I like Perl and I have an
extensive stack built on it including databases and web page integration
and I like my code I keep it all intact.
Rick Moen
2015-02-12 08:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
you have already looked at it more than I have BUT, I barely moderate at
all.
Ruben, you just utterly ignored my point. Which please go back and re-read.
Post by Ruben Safir
One word about majordomo, it is all in perl so I think I've reviewed
the code a bit but that is not a problem.
I like Perl....
And antique proprietary code. Glad you have the justifications for
inertia and ineptitude worked out.
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 08:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Ruben Safir
I like Perl....
And antique proprietary code. Glad you have the justifications for
inertia and ineptitude worked out.
I hate Python, and would you care for me to send you some spitballs and
rubber bands.

Rick, it is a good thing I have an exwife, otherwise this might even
ruffle my feathers. I am going to fix some the host though, I think.
Rick Moen
2015-02-12 09:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Ruben Safir
I like Perl....
And antique proprietary code. Glad you have the justifications for
inertia and ineptitude worked out.
I hate Python, and would you care for me to send you some spitballs and
rubber bands.
And GNU Mailman is the _only_ open source mailing list manager in the
entire solar system, such that your choice is constrained to be either
that or Majordomo, right? Sympa, for example, is totally non-existent.

You know, enjoy the two-decade-old proprietary spaghetti code. It's
obvious you're sticking with inertia and ineptitude, and as usual I'm
wasting my time suggesting that you fix the problem.
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 08:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We take pride in using only a minimal amount of moderation.
How would you prefer it phrased?
Post by Rick Moen
I doubt you are maniacal enough to deliberately have every single
posting held for approval, which is what 'moderated mailing list' means.
You want people to have faith in your listadmin regime? Start by not
calling yourself a moderator when you most likely aren't one. It makes
you look either like a control-freak or someone who doesn't really know
what he's doing.
--
Cheers, "I know you believe you understood what you think I said,
Rick Moen but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not
McQ! (4x80)
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Rick Moen
2015-02-12 09:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
How would you prefer it phrased?
Write your own texts. It's your policy. I'm merely calling attention
to one obvious error.

Here's SVLUG's main policy statement
(http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.php):

SVLUGs' listadmins normally intervene only to ensure lists' technical
operation, to halt spam (incontrovertible spam, not postings someone
merely dislikes), and to halt major eruptions of offtopic spew.
Enforcement if any should always be minimal and public. (We don't do
backroom politics, and our preferred means of social control is to help
everyone apply his/her own well-tuned killfile.)

This reflects SVLUG's practice of never pulling rules out of /dev/ass as
was commonly done in the bad old days of long-ago administrations. One
notes, in that connection, that you appear to document absolutely
nothing about what your policies for your Hangout mailing list actually
are.
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 09:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Ruben Safir
How would you prefer it phrased?
Write your own texts. It's your policy. I'm merely calling attention
to one obvious error.
Here's SVLUG's main policy statement
SVLUGs' listadmins normally intervene only to ensure lists' technical
operation, to halt spam (incontrovertible spam, not postings someone
merely dislikes), and to halt major eruptions of offtopic spew.
Enforcement if any should always be minimal and public. (We don't do
backroom politics, and our preferred means of social control is to help
everyone apply his/her own well-tuned killfile.)
This reflects SVLUG's practice of never pulling rules out of /dev/ass as
was commonly done in the bad old days of long-ago administrations. One
notes, in that connection, that you appear to document absolutely
nothing about what your policies for your Hangout mailing list actually
are.
I can live with listadmins

As for policies, I have none. I have my hands on root. Don't fuck with
me. That is the policy. As someone who has been locked out of numerous
mailing lists, I'm happy to report I haven't felt compelled to do that.
Usually when I'm pissed I'm very good at just telling you but I don't
see it as my job to control the speech of others on the list, or any
other list for that matter.

People have walked off the list because of my refusal to listadmin ...
which is ok. When it is busy, which is not all the time, I hope people
with strong personalities feel comfortable that they will not be cut
off. I don't care about offtopic spew.
Post by Rick Moen
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Rick Moen
2015-02-12 10:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
I can live with listadmins
As for policies, I have none. I have my hands on root. Don't fuck with
me. That is the policy.
Don't tell me. Tell your information pages.

One job of the information page (and welcome notice) for a mailing list
is to set expectations and establish tone. At the moment, your page
about Hangout makes some vague and rambling claims with some odd bits
and some strange wording. 'Hangout is the corner bar or corner cafe,
that NYLXS feels free to discuss nearly any issue as well as conduct
business.' How do issues differ from business, and what are the one or
two 'issues' subscribers are not free to discuss?

The passage uses 'we' in a couple of places. 'We take pride....' 'We
have added....' Does 'we' mean the listadmins? If so, who are they?

Mark Twain observed that the editorial 'we' should be used only by
kings, editors, and people with the tapeworm. How are you feeling? ;->
--
Rick Moen "Starting every sentence in your health story about
***@linuxmafia.com conjunctivitis with a conjunction is what they call
McQ! (4x80) poeticism." -- @FakeAPStylebook
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 16:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
The passage uses 'we' in a couple of places. 'We take pride....' 'We
have added....' Does 'we' mean the listadmins? If so, who are they?
Mark Twain observed that the editorial 'we' should be used only by
kings, editors, and people with the tapeworm. How are you feeling? ;->
We are all the end users suffering under the weight of locked down
information system for which this thread was originally about :(



eh... I'm feeling very tired these days.

Ruben
--
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Ruben Safir
2015-04-17 14:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Moen
Post by Ruben Safir
I can live with listadmins
As for policies, I have none. I have my hands on root. Don't fuck with
me. That is the policy.
Don't tell me. Tell your information pages.
One job of the information page (and welcome notice) for a mailing list
is to set expectations and establish tone. At the moment, your page
about Hangout makes some vague and rambling claims with some odd bits
and some strange wording. 'Hangout is the corner bar or corner cafe,
that NYLXS feels free to discuss nearly any issue as well as conduct
business.' How do issues differ from business, and what are the one or
two 'issues' subscribers are not free to discuss?
The passage uses 'we' in a couple of places. 'We take pride....' 'We
have added....' Does 'we' mean the listadmins? If so, who are they?
Mark Twain observed that the editorial 'we' should be used only by
kings, editors, and people with the tapeworm. How are you feeling? ;->
Your the one who eat in London....
Post by Rick Moen
--
Rick Moen "Starting every sentence in your health story about
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-04-17 21:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
Your the one who eat in London....
"I've been coming to Britain for 50 years. The food is good now."
-- Tony Bennett
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/nov/23/tony-bennett-music
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-02-12 12:22:45 UTC
Permalink
This morning I woke up to the following LWN article:

https://lwn.net/Articles/632572/

If you're not a subscriber, you may need to wait a week to read it, but
I encourage everyone to join LWN. It's still worth it.

Basically Matrix is a bit like Usenet in its flood-fill-on-demand model,
but it has a stronger authentication system and signed history. Here
are some interactions with the devs on freenode #matrix, which is
bridged to one of the Matrix chat channels via a gateway that prepends
'M-' to the users on the Matrix side.

11:14 <Spads> So what sort of anti-harrassment facilities does this
matrix thingummer have?
11:15 <M-matthew> basically irc-style atm
11:15 <Spads> how is authority managed for that?
11:16 <M-matthew> similar to a decentralised chanserv
11:16 <M-matthew> room creator gets privs; can delegate that priv
11:17 <M-matthew> whenever you do something privileged over
federation you have to prove your privilege (by
showing why you have permission to do the thing).
11:18 * Spads nods
11:18 <M-matthew> as we (will) have relatively strong identity, we
can also apply rules perserver and peruser to try
to fight spam. but that's not in place yet.
11:19 <Spads> A lot of people are comparing the architecture to
Usenet, and harrassment has become a hot topic in tech
channels lately due to twitter being in the news and
things like Linus's crude tone
11:19 <Spads> I discovered this shortly after posting
http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2015-February/013800.html
so I'm in the market for something New And Better :)
11:19 <Zappelin> Title: [linux-elitists] No results found for
"social justice growth hacking". (at zgp.org)
11:21 <M-matthew> right - usenet has no strong identity obviously,
and no ACL system (beyond archaic moderated
newsgroups)
11:21 * Spads nods
11:21 <M-matthew> and isn't really realtime... and doesn't really do
arbitrary data sync
11:21 <M-matthew> and doesn't have cryptosigned history
11:22 <Spads> so the flood-sync is clever and on-demand, right?
11:22 <M-matthew> yup, basically
11:22 <Spads> like, if a channel has 10 years of history I don't
need to wait for that to catch up to start participating
11:22 <M-matthew> correct
11:22 <Spads> cool
11:22 <Spads> so what about privacy management?
11:23 <M-matthew> you store as little or as much as you like on your
local server, and pull stuff in on demand
11:23 <Spads> which I realise probably overlaps heavily with the
anti-harrassment stuff I asked about
11:23 <M-matthew> with eventual consistency semantics
11:23 <M-matthew> for privacy, you can create anon accounts and use
otr-ish stuff on top (which we will spec rsn)
11:26 <M-matthew> spads: the other difference from usenet is that
it's entirely open federation. and http apis.
11:26 <M-matthew> and hopefully not overrun with pr0n and warez :)
11:27 <M-matthew> but yes, there are slight parallels
11:27 <M-tadzik> well, everyone is free to host their own pron and
warez matrix servers :)
11:27 <M-matthew> but just as much with IMAP or AFS and stuff too
11:27 <M-matthew> tadzik: indeed
11:28 <M-tadzik> can't wait :P
11:28 <M-matthew> hence the joy of open federation

I pointed them in the direction of redecentralize.org and they said that
seems like a good match. So look forward to an interview with them
there some time this year.
Don Marti
2015-02-12 16:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
I pointed them in the direction of redecentralize.org and they said that
seems like a good match. So look forward to an interview with them
there some time this year.
IRC was ahead of its time in a lot of ways but it
does look like it's time for a next-generation system.

My problem is that many of the people I want to
coverse with have done the sensible thing and left
the -0800 time zone. And I keep fairly weird hours
anyway. So mailing lists or Usenet are probably nore
practical for me.

(But don't listen to me. I'm not the person the
next-generation communication system should be
built for -- it has to be for the person with
the interest and some of the skills to be a
helper/troubleshooter/contributor on whatever the
next platform is.)
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-02-12 18:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
I pointed them in the direction of redecentralize.org and they said
that seems like a good match. So look forward to an interview with
them there some time this year.
IRC was ahead of its time in a lot of ways but it does look like it's
time for a next-generation system.
Don't forget that IRC is a product of the 1980s. A lot of the people I
see giving up on IRC are actually younger than the system itself.
My problem is that many of the people I want to coverse with have done
the sensible thing and left the -0800 time zone. And I keep fairly
weird hours anyway. So mailing lists or Usenet are probably nore
practical for me.
Well Matrix is all about syncing logs around, so you can structure your
clients to use part of the namespace for more long-form conversation.
Imagine a linux-elitists forum where your moderation policy is "no
proprietary clients, and at least 500 words". It could be akin to the
old #xkcd-signal channel, where the only rule (automatically enforced
through bans with exponential back-off times) was that nobody could
repeat a line that had already been said in-channel.
(But don't listen to me. I'm not the person the next-generation
communication system should be built for -- it has to be for the
person with the interest and some of the skills to be a
helper/troubleshooter/contributor on whatever the next platform is.)
Yeah, the trouble is that I'm not either. So I'll probably chase
something endearingly retro and familiar again, and miss the really
radical reinvention.
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-02-12 19:55:48 UTC
Permalink
I set up a server in a throwaway account/virtualenv and I've been
playing in the Web client, IRC, and the matrix.org Web client
simultaneously for a bit.

I did ask about long-form writing, and they said they're definitely
working on the sorts of protocol features to support that (public
message URIs, context displays in the Web client, etc).

Right now the only clients are Web, iOS, and Android. Someone's working
on libpurple (to get you bitlbee, which gateways to most popular IRC
clients), and the group was chasing down a pair who are working on a
custom console client.

The big problem they're dealing with right now is that some of the
participants in #matrix:matrix.org (that's the URI spec for channels,
basically) have torn down their servers and blackholed the port. This
means that on *first* join to that channel from another server, you end
up with some pretty messy timeouts.

Oh, I had to run from the exception-fixes branch to get around another
bug as well, but I expect that to hit master soon.

The folks who are working on this are definitely Our People in a lot of
ways. That can be good and bad, but I find that they definitely are
looking ahead to lots of possibilities for novel clients and their UX.
Don Marti
2015-03-02 17:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
The folks who are working on this are definitely Our People in a lot of
ways. That can be good and bad, but I find that they definitely are
looking ahead to lots of possibilities for novel clients and their UX.
Bonus link: Valerie Aurora on backchannels:
http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2015/03/01/starting-your-own-feminist-backchannel/

Maybe the problem is that there used to be a
freedom-loving freak backchannel of people who worked
in Enterprise IT but wanted to talk about new stuff,
bottom up. And now Open Source Brand Enterprise
IT(tm) is the front channel.
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Don Marti
2015-02-12 19:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Well Matrix is all about syncing logs around, so you can structure your
clients to use part of the namespace for more long-form conversation.
Imagine a linux-elitists forum where your moderation policy is "no
proprietary clients, and at least 500 words". It could be akin to the
old #xkcd-signal channel, where the only rule (automatically enforced
through bans with exponential back-off times) was that nobody could
repeat a line that had already been said in-channel.
That's a great idea, especially if you
pre-populate the logs using Monty-Python-bot and
Robert-A-Heinlein-bot.

All right, I'll read up on Matrix, if I can use it
more as a newsgroup, less as a channel, I'll see what
it can do.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
(But don't listen to me. I'm not the person the next-generation
communication system should be built for -- it has to be for the
person with the interest and some of the skills to be a
helper/troubleshooter/contributor on whatever the next platform is.)
Yeah, the trouble is that I'm not either. So I'll probably chase
something endearingly retro and familiar again, and miss the really
radical reinvention.
Good point. Teh Twitter is having its own trouble,
so there's definitely a niche for a new communication
tool.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/535031/can-twitter-fix-its-harassment-problem-without-losing-its-soul/

(Anyone who does have accounts on the mass-market
social sites, I have some Keybase invites. Mail me
off-list if you want one: https://keybase.io/dmarti )
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 07:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So where is the next generation coming from? What's going to be the
"holy shit, all those new people are running THAT?" platform?
I don't know, but I can tell you that the competition right now seems to
be JavaScript in various forms.
People may be writing fancy new back-end server stacks on dragonfly bsd
docker images using haskell or clojure or whatever, but by and large all
of that mess is a delivery mechanism for large blobs of minified
proprietary JavaScript.
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
Tech-savvy people I trust are leaving IRC for whatever Google
Chat-Hangout thing is hip these days, and it's reminding me of that
period in the early 1990s when I clung to local BBSes because I found
the Internet so vast and impersonal. These days I find IRC networks
run by friends and co-conspirators far less corporate and spooky than
anything out there. Boy was Jabber ever a failure!
I don't think your getting it. They don't give a fuck. If I hear one
more undergrad proudly tell me how they have installed umbuntu on their
windows box in an Oracle VM, I'm going to puke. There is far more
interest in playing, lets decorate out KDE environment, than any
fucntionality. From Netrunner on down, there is a flood of "distros"
where the chairs are moved around on the titanic.


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we might well be into a time period where
installation of GNU systems on new hardware is the hardest it has been
in a decade. I have installed 1000's of linux boxes over the decades
and recently I picked up some new hardware and 8 distros failed to
install out of the box, from Mint on to opensuse and slackware.

The opensource comerical vendors might be some of your biggest problems,

i don't know. I've been struggling with this quite a bit over the last
few months, and I feel tapped. I might finally have gotten some
organizational enthusiams going... I'll see in the next few weeks.

On another note, two weeks ago, someone told me that they lost their
cellpone in Jerusalem and it must have been stolen by arabs because she
could track it all the way in Jericho and into Jordan...

on to Syria and off the grid....

oh well

What you need is a product, maybe that goes from A to Z. Pint size
server with webserver and private secure email and a phone with full
integrations to the private system, and sweeten it with social network
pluggins.
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
So I think we need another moon-shot GNU project, but reaching further.
We need APIs that from the start fit the model of what people are
developing today. I can't tell you how frustrating it is that PyGame
took decades before "Just multiply your movement by dt" became the norm.
Everyone did all kinds of horrible pointless framerate hacks! We need
to copy the best interfaces, and support The Clean Architecture in
nearly everything (just as Unix pipes did!).
We also need better communication channels and tools. We need something
that can take over from the snapchats and facebooks and such, but treat
the user with respect. There needs to be privacy as a default, and the
ability to host the streams yourself.
But we also need better protection from harassment. Right now the only
way we've worked out how to solve this is centralised moderation,
Metafilter-style. We need to work out how to make a system where if a
socially vulnerable under-represented youth starts thinking maybe it
would be worthwhile to develop Free Software, that participation is easy
without stepping in flame wars or suffering under hails of sadistic
abuse from privileged jerks.
The closest system I can come up with is the Sugar project from
SugarLabs (who took over the software side from the OLPC project when
the latter went off into "Green Android tablet with Proprietary Branded
Content" tail-spins). The code was ahead of its time a decade ago, and
now is a little passé but still very nice. Some inspiration to draw
from, there, but we need to be more radical.
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 16:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
this is about as elegant as I've seen this expressed. Can I use this
paragraph?
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We need APIs that from the start fit the model of what people are
developing today. I can't tell you how frustrating it is that PyGame
took decades before "Just multiply your movement by dt" became the norm.
Everyone did all kinds of horrible pointless framerate hacks! We need
to copy the best interfaces, and support The Clean Architecture in
nearly everything (just as Unix pipes did!).
This just gives me a clockwork orange collage of bad imagines

systemd
uefi
ajax
webdav
firefox 3.4
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
We also need better communication channels and tools. We need something
that can take over from the snapchats and facebooks and such, but treat
the user with respect. There needs to be privacy as a default, and the
ability to host the streams yourself.
But we also need better protection from harassment. Right now the only
way we've worked out how to solve this is centralised moderation,
Metafilter-style. We need to work out how to make a system where if a
socially vulnerable under-represented youth starts thinking maybe it
would be worthwhile to develop Free Software, that participation is easy
without stepping in flame wars or suffering under hails of sadistic
abuse from privileged jerks.
The closest system I can come up with is the Sugar project from
SugarLabs (who took over the software side from the OLPC project when
the latter went off into "Green Android tablet with Proprietary Branded
Content" tail-spins). The code was ahead of its time a decade ago, and
now is a little passé but still very nice. Some inspiration to draw
from, there, but we need to be more radical.
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Teh Entar-Nick
2015-02-12 16:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruben Safir
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
this is about as elegant as I've seen this expressed. Can I use this
paragraph?
Um, sure, I guess.
Don Marti
2015-02-12 19:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Post by Ruben Safir
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
this is about as elegant as I've seen this expressed. Can I use this
paragraph?
Um, sure, I guess.
I generally say something like, "permission to
quote a short passage with attribution...DENIED!
Your Fair Use powers are capable of this without my
help, use them!"

(The sad part is last time I did that it turned out
that it was for a student whose professor or teacher
_required_ him to get permission for what should be a
normal thing to do in a paper: quoting one sentence.)
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
***@zgp.org
Ruben Safir
2015-02-12 21:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Marti
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
Post by Ruben Safir
Post by Teh Entar-Nick
And we've lost the communication edge as well. Ten years ago people
still actually used e-mail, and sometimes even a mom-and-pop server.
These days email is just an old-fashioned term for gmail, and the
interoperability has a future only slightly less dismal than the
privacy.
this is about as elegant as I've seen this expressed. Can I use this
paragraph?
Um, sure, I guess.
I generally say something like, "permission to
quote a short passage with attribution...DENIED!
Your Fair Use powers are capable of this without my
help, use them!"
This is not, for me, a copyright issue. It is personal. If I use his
words for political discourse, he should know I'm integrating that into
some propaganda effort.
Post by Don Marti
(The sad part is last time I did that it turned out
that it was for a student whose professor or teacher
_required_ him to get permission for what should be a
normal thing to do in a paper: quoting one sentence.)
--
Don Marti
http://zgp.org/~dmarti/
_______________________________________________
Do not Cc: anyone else on mail sent to this list. The list server is set for maximum one recipient.
linux-elitists mailing list
http://zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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